Grape quality impacts the wine - or is it the process

[distancerunner]

We’ve made second run wines on several occasions. Some of it has been very good. The key items are lightly pressing the skins from the first run, leaving as many seeds out of the press as possible, and treating it like a first run wine. Run labs, make adjustments, ferment normally. Press lightly.

The yield will be approximately half of the first run, like Rocky stated above. If you‘re greedy the results will be weak and flavorless.

The resulting product won’t necessarily taste like the first run. But it will be good.

 

[tullamore]

the beauty about wine is - give a glass to 3-4 people - most of the time 3-4 of them has a different take on smell, taste, mid pallet, and Finnish - there's no right on wrong on smell or taste - unless its corked - then its bad
this is my take - u get what u pay for -
living in ontario canada - i have bought grapes from $55/lug to $95/lug
IMO u get what u pay for - the $55/lug is ok (we call it the cheap buzz wine) not for me
now my take is this - i like spending a little more and make a better wine - and yes the wine makers do have an impact
but if u start off with good quality grapes u are better off - once agin IMO - some people won't go to that $95/lug
after 35 years of wine making i tend to lean towards the higher end grapes - once agin IMO - to each their own
if u are going to make something and invest a lot of time - what not use the best ingredient u can get t start off with
as for the second run i get a higher end pails of juice and add to the skins that were pressed - the juice most defiantly makes a difference
once again IMO

 

[winemaker81]

alcohol can extract histamines (biogenic amines) from seeds in a second run so in certain cases second run can give you a headache

Where did you get info on this? I did general searches, plus searches on the AWRI, Florida and Geneva NY research sites, and found very little of use. Several sites state histamine is extracted from the skins, so reds are higher in histamine (by a LOT), but it wasn't clear if the writer understood what that meant, e.g., is histamine in the just the skins, or is it in the pomace (skin, pulp, seeds)? The AWRI had a brief statement about Chardonnay developing higher histamine levels after aging on the lees for 180 days.

I found nothing I'd call substantial, and a lot of pure hogwash, including several purveyors who claim their "natural wine" is either histamine free or "the lowest in the world".

 

[joeswine]

the beauty about wine is - give a glass to 3-4 people - most of the time 3-4 of them has a different take on smell, taste, mid pallet, and Finnish - there's no right on wrong on smell or taste - unless its corked - then its bad
this is my take - u get what u pay for -
living in ontario canada - i have bought grapes from $55/lug to $95/lug
IMO u get what u pay for - the $55/lug is ok (we call it the cheap buzz wine) not for me
now my take is this - i like spending a little more and make a better wine - and yes the wine makers do have an impact
but if u start off with good quality grapes u are better off - once agin IMO - some people won't go to that $95/lug
after 35 years of wine making i tend to lean towards the higher end grapes - once agin IMO - to each their own
if u are going to make something and invest a lot of time - what not use the best ingredient u can get t start off with
as for the second run i get a higher end pails of juice and add to the skins that were pressed - the juice most defiantly makes a difference
once again IMO

Yes indeed

 

[balatonwine]

Snip from OP comment above:

All 3 Zin batches were 23-24 BRIX.

Hate to say this, but far too much ambiguity there.

For example, Brix alone is not enough. A pH number is essential to get a Brix/pH ratio or a TA number to get a TA ratio, which is important for good wine making. That is, you may have an ideal Brix, but too low acidity to make a decent wine.

IMHO: To make good wine you need either a lot of experience, or a lot of good numbers about the grape chemistry. Given the later, you can adjust the chemistry if you know how. Which is what a lot of hobby wine makers do (understand the chemistry and adjust as needed to make a good wine***).

***And it can be a good wine*** I am not of those to think that only those that have 5 generations of wine makers in the family only can make a good wine based only on experience. Understanding the chemistry can easily shave off at least a generation or two...

*** Aging and racking is another issue....

 

[joeswine]

Snip from OP comment above:


Hate to say this, but far too much ambiguity there.

For example, Brix alone is not enough. A pH number is essential to get a Brix/pH ratio or a TA number to get a TA ratio, which is important for good wine making. That is, you may have an ideal Brix, but too low acidity to make a decent wine.

IMHO: To make good wine you need either a lot of experience, or a lot of good numbers about the grape chemistry. Given the later, you can adjust the chemistry if you know how. Which is what a lot of hobby wine makers do (understand the chemistry and adjust as needed to make a good wine***).

***And it can be a good wine*** I am not of those to think that only those that have 5 generations of wine makers in the family only can make a good wine based only on experience. Understanding the chemistry can easily shave off at least a generation or two...

*** Aging and racking is another issue....

All ther above . Your correct

 

[Hazelemere]

Where did you get info on this? I did general searches, plus searches on the AWRI, Florida and Geneva NY research sites, and found very little of use. Several sites state histamine is extracted from the skins, so reds are higher in histamine (by a LOT), but it wasn't clear if the writer understood what that meant, e.g., is histamine in the just the skins, or is it in the pomace (skin, pulp, seeds)? The AWRI had a brief statement about Chardonnay developing higher histamine levels after aging on the lees for 180 days.

I found nothing I'd call substantial, and a lot of pure hogwash, including several purveyors who claim their "natural wine" is either histamine free or "the lowest in the world".

histamine can be generated by malolactic bacteria from amino acids in proteins or from alcohol extraction of oak or seeds

 

[Nebbiolo020]

alcohol can extract histamines (biogenic amines) from seeds in a second run so in certain cases second run can give you a headache

some women get headaches from biogenic amines generated by malolactic bacteria especially in barrels.

Biogenic amines are the cause of most of the headaches people get from wine alongside tannins sulfites causing it is mostly a myth that people perpetuate.

You can get strains of malolactic bacteria like my favorite Laffort b7 direct that produce little or no amines and are preferred for reliable malolactic fermentation.

 

[Obelix]

Sorry. I was away for some weeks. Was not aware of responses.

Re:good grape
Tasted the new Grenache yesterday before I added sulphites. . Very, very nice
The grape was if a great quality.
So far so good.

About the 2nd run...

My experience with it was always poor.

With grappa too. Some people make grappa after they pressed the grapes, then add sugar and re-ferment.
Ugly taste and headache, so maybe it is sugar, or could be what Hazelemere said.