Glass vs Cork Closures The way of the future??

Help Support Wine Making Talk:

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Are they reusable? If so, it might be worthwhile to explore a group buy.
Based on comments by others who have some of the vinoseal closures, they have successfully re-used them multiple times. For sales local laws might prohibit re-use but for home hobbiest wine making use I see no reason not to do so - As long as the seal is in tact. The ones I recovered from the recycling center all appear to be in great shape. I imagine if someone used a table knife to remove the 'cork' that they could damage it beyond use.

As far as a group buy I would be willing to join in. As a ball park number
$.53 x 480 (qty per case) = 254.40
254.40 x 2 (minimum case quantity = 508.80
+ Shipping (A WAG = $50.00 - 100.00 ???)
+ customs fees (? - is there a tariff on these or a standard rate ?)

A lot depends on shipping and customs fees especially if they have to come from Czech. (one reason if they have the clear ones in stock in Oregon, I'd rather go that way.)
I imagine the price difference for those from Czech vs Oregon, USA ($28.80) is not the full amount of shipping as they shipping large quantities at a time.

I could use certainly 240 (4 buyers) with re-use and an average of 100=120 bottles on the shelf for me that would work out
Of course I could stretch and go for 320 too, that would probably last me a long long time at the rate I'm making wine.

By the way I did see someone selling a package of 6 on Ebay and asking $14.99 for those. Someone else was selling used ones for $1.00 each. They clearly think very highly of what they have.
 

salcoco

Veteran Wine Maker
WMT Supporter
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
2,555
Reaction score
941
Location
Kansas
quote is fob Czech republic plus custom fees could double the price to rich for me. thanks for your efforts
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Yup - FOB Czech would be pretty much a killer- I understand. I'll check on the clear top vs black and see if those are stocked in the US. Shipping could still be tough.

I'll update once I get that info. The response I got initially said they stock the clear and black in the US but apparently that isn't for all sizes. That's the other issue - the entire order has to be one size. Personally it would be a stretch for me at one case - two by myself definitely a no go. If I was a eBay seller I could break even selling smaller lots but; that's not something I'm into.
Now if we could get a wine supply house to supply... and break those case quantities in half.... that might work but...that's pipe dreaming.
 

stickman

Veteran Winemaker
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
1,447
Reaction score
1,240
One interesting detail I noticed is the tight specification on the diameter of the Vinoseal closures. When I look at wine bottle neck diameter specifications for the American market, I see typically 18.5mm plus or minus .5mm, which means the neck could be as small as 18mm or as large as 19mm depending on the production lot. I've collected bottles throughout the years from both the foreign and domestic markets and never thought much about the possible neck diameter variation, with a cork it is less of an issue, but with the Vinoseal it might make a difference in performance.
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
I tried the ones I have from the Cotes des Rose from Gérard Bertrand bottles and you are correct. There were some (The cheaper wine brands mainly I noticed) that the closure would not fit at all. Some fit very snugly but did fit and some were not terribly firm. I am comparing that to the way they fit in their original bottles and the original bottle fit lands between very snug to moderately snug - but now I need to go back and check one closure on all 10 of my matching bottles they came from. By my micrometer they are 18.2 if I don't snug down the micrometer. (Reasonable since you want some give in the material to seal.)

Again once I get the samples I will try them on the various brand bottle that I have from the recycling center to see if there is a trend. I do have a lot of bottles that I haven't stripped of their labels yet so I can try to get a list of those the fit and those that don't or fit too loose. I pick up no less than five of any given brand (5 equaling in gallon of wine of course) So as you mention, I can check the over all fit.

By the way I wonder if those bottles that measure smaller are in fact not truly round. As you say with a cork that doesn't matter - it will compress and deform within reason and provide a good seal.

It's not looking real promising but I'm not ready to give up totally - yet. Will depend on the fit testing and the availability of the right size from stateside supplies. Clearly shipping from the Czech Republic is probably going to be way too steep.

The companies that use these seem very happy by their reports.
 

Brettanomyces

Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
91
Reaction score
36
Is the price quoted from the Czech company for export? As in, was the VAT already taken out, or would that further reduce the price?
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Vat is not listed. Prices were quoted by US based part of the company. I understand that VAT charges are not applied in most cases to products shipped out of country - however FOB... suggests it could be considered as having been purchased in country for taxation purposes. If that is the situation ... it's then becoming more and more unlikely as a viable option.
The products on hand stateside are $0.06 more each so I assume ... that includes markup for shipping the product to the US from the Czech Republic.
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Not over.... yet.
If they have the clear thin top 18.2 mm size in stock Stateside there is still hope. I think that will turn out to be the best fit but I'll know more when I receive the sample package.
And things may change in a few months or a year or two.
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
952
Reaction score
648
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
just curious --- did anyone bother to contact Vinolok directly about direct shipping and prices:

https://vinolok.cz/en/contact/

Funny thing is, since I am living in Hungary, I can by these rather easily. If it were not for the punishing 27% VAT the Hungarian government imposes on all retail sales that are not VAT exempt I would be happy to redirect and export them to the USA. But I can't, so I won't.

But, since some were wondering, yes, all exports from the EU and ECA are also VAT exempt for tax exempt business transactions. But then shipping and tariffs are your problem. Traffics don't kick in till a monetary amount is reached. So fewer may be cheaper. But if you are not tariff exempt, maybe buy sooner than later before Donald slaps on new EU tariffs.... Just saying....
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
just curious --- did anyone bother to contact Vinolok directly about direct shipping and prices:

https://vinolok.cz/en/contact/

Funny thing is, since I am living in Hungary, I can by these rather easily. If it were not for the punishing 27% VAT the Hungarian government imposes on all retail sales that are not VAT exempt I would be happy to redirect and export them to the USA. But I can't, so I won't.

But, since some were wondering, yes, all exports from the EU and ECA are also VAT exempt for tax exempt business transactions. But then shipping and tariffs are your problem. Traffics don't kick in till a monetary amount is reached. So fewer may be cheaper. But if you are not tariff exempt, maybe buy sooner than later before Donald slaps on new EU tariffs.... Just saying....

UNFAIR not right that you can buy them locally. (Joking !!!)

To answer first... they sell through their stateside affiliate for all US sales.
And secondly - yes the world of VAT's and tariffs are messy and getting more messy every day. Trade battles do that and hopefully some new arrangements will be made to smooth things out.

As I mentioned I'll see what possible and reasonable for now and then see if it's worth the effort or just wait. I have to beleive that these things are going to dominate before long. Especially if the environmental groups keep attacking every sort of business they find offensive. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes...
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Awaiting prices on the clear closures and info about what they have in stateside warehouse.
Here's the sample set they sent. Clearly they can make an impression even on just an 'ordinary' wine bottle.

VinosealSamples.JPG
 

stickman

Veteran Winemaker
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
1,447
Reaction score
1,240
Those closures do look nice.

Just for reference, I measured the opening of some bottles I have here. Three cases of brand new Bordeaux bottles from Waterloo Container made in USA, each case had 9 bottles that measured 18.40mm, 1 bottle 18.50mm, and two at 18.35mm. I also checked a case of the older random bottles I've collected over the years, obviously these were highly variable, they averaged close to 18.20mm, but there were two at 18.02, one at 17.50mm, and two at 18.50mm. The 17.5mm was a Bordeaux bottle and it was difficult to tell that it was any different by just looking.
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
I haven't measured any of my bottles yet. Since I now have the reference closures in the various sizes. I guess it's on me to test the fit. Even if turns out to be a 'no-go' for now... it's worth knowing the requirements for the future. I have to admit that 'cut crystal' look in the center of the smaller box REALLY looks classy.

One thing the closure contacts told me in their email is that THEY also sell bottles... Not surprising and in a way smart - control as many of the variables as you can and that better insures a happy customer.

By the way, I did buy a brand new bottle of the Cotes des Roses wine and the second time I opened it I got a splash of wine on me.... makes me think that those thicker/taller tops have an advantage with more to grip when opening. Closing is a breeze snug but not hard to do. (for the record)
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
I've done a quick check on some of the bottles I see a lot at the recycling center here. The 18.5 seems to be the best fit for the majority of the ones I tried. Stickman that seems about right with what you found I think. I'll do more measurements tomorrow.
Think what I'll do is check out the ones I commonly see that I think are sold 'everywhere' take a photo of the label and provide those as thumbnails along with a list of brands.

Also just got pricing on Clear glass tops and they are a bit more but they are available stateside (Salem Oregon) Anyone in that area interested? Any who... here is the latest prices I received:

Item: VS: VinoSeal 18.2mm Clear Low Top
Quantity: 480 pieces per case MOQ 2 cases
Price: $0.60 per piece FOB Salem OR


Item: VS: VinoSeal 18.5mm Clear Low Top
Quantity: 480 pieces per case MOQ 2 cases
Price: $0.60 per piece
FOB Salem OR


Item: VS: VinoSeal 18.5mm Clear Hight Top
Quantity: 420 pieces per case MOQ 2 cases
Price: $0.65 per piece FOB Salem OR

+Shipping
 

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
So I invested in a digital micrometer ( not high end but good enough) and checked the measurements of a sample of the bottles I seen to find commonly at my local recycling center. Brands like Berringer, Yellow Tail, Kendall-Jackson, H3, Apothic, Cloisonne, and Stella Rosa. The most common size varies around 18.5mm except for Stella Rosa that is at 17.5mm. (Oh and there is definitely variation in the measurement if I take it at 3 different points on a bottle opening. Some not much others as much as .2 mm. )
Then I took the sample tops and used both the ones marked as 18.5 thin and thick top and one of the customized tops that measured at 18.5. the fit just seemed soft, as in not giving me that warm-fuzzy feeling. At least not to the point of my investing $500.00+ and hoping enough others want to join in.

Guess I'll be staying with cork closures until I hit the lottery, or there is a real break through on pricing.

Those commented thank you. The glass closures are some serious eye candy but unless you have a supply of bottles that fit really 'right' I'm not going to take the plunge.
 
Last edited:

Scooter68

Fruit "Wine" Maker
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,431
Hope? I found out I have a relative who travels a lot and among the places they go is .....Czech Republic and they know about that town where these closures are made. Maybe .... they might be able to pick up a small quantity to get me started. Have to wait and see.
 
2
Group Builder
Top