Glass marbles, how to tell not leaded

[seth8530]

Seth, good point. Also, the HDPE balls I'm referring to are hollow, but strong. When added they sit on top of the wine. My thinking is that this provides two advantages. First, the balls are between the wine and the air which should provide extra protection. Second, they can actually eliminate air space by sitting on top of the wine.
Tony P.

Hmm, if they are just sitting on top of the wine then they are not really doing that great of a job to eliminate head space. because you are going to have a very large number of small unprotected areas... However, the concept of using heavy food grade plastic to displace volume seems like the way to go... We should research this.

 

[TonyP]

Hmm, if they are just sitting on top of the wine then they are not really doing that great of a job to eliminate head space. because you are going to have a very large number of small unprotected areas... However, the concept of using heavy food grade plastic to displace volume seems like the way to go... We should research this.

Seth, I haven't had my coffee yet so I'll use that as an excuse if I'm wrong. However, it seems to me that filling an area with plastic balls has to reduce the amount of remaining area. Thus, adding a 1 cubic inch ball to a carboy eliminates 1 cubic inch of head space (until you have no remaining head space), whether the ball is at the top or the bottom and a 1 cubic inch marble or plastic ball eliminates the same area.

Tony P.

 

[seth8530]

That is mostly true except that an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside. ( well for the most part)... Think of it this way. When you use marbles that sink to the bottom of the carboy you are displacing wine which then displaces air. When placing marbles into the wine you can add as many marbles as you could possibly need to make the wine push the all the air out and potentially even displace wine outside of the carboy.

Now if you are placing HDPE balls on the top of the wine you are displacing air. When you displace air the air is going to go outside of the carboy. Some could feasibly get pushed into the wine but that isn't very likely I don't think. However, the issue with the HDPE balls is that you can only add as many of them as will fit inside the head space. But you will not be able to displace the air that is in between all the of the HDPE balls.

Another Idea might be to use a fermentation bag filled up with stainless steel marbles or shot? It could be placed inside slowly and I dont think you need to worry about stainless steel leaching anything nasty into your wine.

 

[bob1]

round objects do not store well or pkg well as they leave a lot of air around them. Letting them float on the wine does not sound like a good fix for head space. You are still going to have air between them.

 

[Deezil]

Another Idea might be to use a fermentation bag filled up with stainless steel marbles or shot? It could be placed inside slowly and I dont think you need to worry about stainless steel leaching anything nasty into your wine.

Vacuumpumpman took a thought like this, and use a straw + air to blow it up inside the carboy and displace volume.. When you pulled the straw out, it sealed.. Inserting the straw let the air out again when you needed to remove it.. I think his were 1L-size, but i dunno if they ever caught on well enough for him to get a bunch made

Maybe he'll chime in at some point

 

[TonyP]

round objects do not store well or pkg well as they leave a lot of air around them. Letting them float on the wine does not sound like a good fix for head space. You are still going to have air between them.

Sorry to be difficult here, but I suspect I'm not saying this properly. Any two objects of the same cubic area will displace exactly the same amount of space irrespective of whether we're displacing, solids liquids, or gasses. If you have a 10 ounce container with 5 ounces of liquid and add a one ounce solid, you only have 4 ounces left, irrespective of whether the object floats or sinks. In my example, the remaining 4 ounces is air. Then, adding another 4 ounces of solid and the container is full; again irrespective of whether the solid objects sink or float. Thus, you're always displacing air out the top until the container has no more air left.

In other words, Seth's point ("an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside") is only correct in isolation. In both cases (floating or sinking balls), the end result is that air is displaced. The idea of adding marbles or plastic balls is to displace a certain amount of air and adding marbles or plastic balls of the same size displaces the same amount of air. Functionally, they are interchangeable.

Continuing my point with the quote, above, sinking balls and floating balls both displace air in the carboy until the liquid gets to the top. I would prefer to have plastic balls and a small amount of air instead of only air at the top of the carboy. If you're hung up with shape, the balls come in many sizes, so you can get pea size.

Finally, HDPE balls come in either solid or hollow. If you're hung up with floating versus not, solid HDPE balls are also superior to marbles which are not food safe. They are cheaper (roughly $5.00 for 100 balls) and safer.

Tony P.

 

[seth8530]

Vacuumpumpman took a thought like this, and use a straw + air to blow it up inside the carboy and displace volume.. When you pulled the straw out, it sealed.. Inserting the straw let the air out again when you needed to remove it.. I think his were 1L-size, but i dunno if they ever caught on well enough for him to get a bunch made

Maybe he'll chime in at some point

+1 for this idea or sinking HDPE

 

[seth8530]

Sorry to be difficult here, but I suspect I'm not saying this properly. Any two objects of the same cubic area will displace exactly the same amount of space irrespective of whether we're displacing, solids liquids, or gasses. If you have a 10 ounce container with 5 ounces of liquid and add a one ounce solid, you only have 4 ounces left, irrespective of whether the object floats or sinks. In my example, the remaining 4 ounces is air. Then, adding another 4 ounces of solid and the container is full; again irrespective of whether the solid objects sink or float. Thus, you're always displacing air out the top until the container has no more air left.

In other words, Seth's point ("an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside") is only correct in isolation. In both cases (floating or sinking balls), the end result is that air is displaced. The idea of adding marbles or plastic balls is to displace a certain amount of air and adding marbles or plastic balls of the same size displaces the same amount of air. Functionally, they are interchangeable.

Continuing my point with the quote, above, sinking balls and floating balls both displace air in the carboy until the liquid gets to the top. I would prefer to have plastic balls and a small amount of air instead of only air at the top of the carboy. If you're hung up with shape, the balls come in many sizes, so you can get pea size.

Finally, HDPE balls come in either solid or hollow. If you're hung up with floating versus not, solid HDPE balls are also superior to marbles which are not food safe. They are cheaper (roughly $5.00 for 100 balls) and safer.

Tony P.

What you said seems logical, However, if you place objects that are denser than water inside the wine you will be able to displace more volume than you would be able to displace with floating objects.. Their is more volume to displace inside the wine than their is on top of it. The trouble with your idea is that you are going to end up with a pretty decent area of air exposure because floating spheres are not able to perfectly displace all of the air volume. ie if you want to displace 1.6 cubic inches of air but your sphere is 1.62 cubic inches its not going to work. You are going to be stuck with that 1.6 cubic inches of air.

 

[TonyP]

Can anyone else please explain this better than me?

Seth, I'll think about your points and get back to you tomorrow. However, let me say I suspect I won't agree and we'll have to just agree to disagree. My perspective is not only logical, it's basic math and science. Density is of no consequence when you refer to displacement. Sorry, but that's how it is unless you change the universe. A bowling ball and a hollow ball of the same area displace the same amount. Density has an impact on weight per size but not area.

It's like this, Seth, if you fill a 6 gallon carboy with 6 gallons of concrete, 6 gallons of fluff, 6 gallons of wine, 6 gallons of air, or 6 gallons of HDPE, the carboy is full. The only difference is how much the carboy weighs. The area is not impacted: 6 gallons equals 6 gallons.

Also, you're missing the basic point. Is any 1 cubic inch object different from any other object of 1 cubic inch when it comes to displacement and the answer is no. If not, when you try a cubic area math problem, you'd have to ask what the object is made of. I guarantee in math you never asked in an area math problem what the object was made of.

Note that I'm not suggesting HDPE balls displace air completely and perfectly. Clearly, the fact that they are inflexible does not allow that.

Beyond that, the only important point of this entire topic is whether marbles are better than HDPE, and I've never heard anyone say, "yes".

Tony P.

 

[mmadmikes1]

I like girls that make there own wine :L)

 

[seth8530]

Can anyone else please explain this better than me?

Seth, I'll think about your points and get back to you tomorrow. However, let me say I suspect I won't agree and we'll have to just agree to disagree. My perspective is not only logical, it's basic math and science. Density is of no consequence when you refer to displacement. Sorry, but that's how it is unless you change the universe. A bowling ball and a hollow ball of the same area displace the same amount. Density has an impact on weight per size but not area.

It's like this, Seth, if you fill a 6 gallon carboy with 6 gallons of concrete, 6 gallons of fluff, 6 gallons of wine, 6 gallons of air, or 6 gallons of HDPE, the carboy is full. The only difference is how much the carboy weighs. The area is not impacted: 6 gallons equals 6 gallons.

Also, you're missing the basic point. Is any 1 cubic inch object different from any other object of 1 cubic inch when it comes to displacement and the answer is no. If not, when you try a cubic area math problem, you'd have to ask what the object is made of. I guarantee in math you never asked in an area math problem what the object was made of.

Note that I'm not suggesting HDPE balls displace air completely and perfectly. Clearly, the fact that they are inflexible does not allow that.

Beyond that, the only important point of this entire topic is whether marbles are better than HDPE, and I've never heard anyone say, "yes".

Tony P.

Sorry, I should of been clear about when I was talking about density. I meant to say that items that are denser than water would be better because they would sink to the bottom. That is the only reason why I mentioned the density.

Also, I agree with you that we both know that HDPE do not completely displace the air and I agree they are better than having nothing to displace volume. However, why settle for better when we can have best?

I do not think that marbles are best... However, I believe that some sort of submerged volume displacement is what we are after due to the fact that it gives you infinite control over how much volume you wish to displace.

Im hoping that we can work together as a community to come up with a solution that is is not good, or better.. But something that works perfectly.

 

[BeerAlchemist]

I don't see why unleaded marbles would be an issue, no one seems to have issues leaving wine in a glass carboy for a year or more. My understanding is that heavy metals either do not or very slowly leave the body so accumulation over time is a concern, so to that end I wouldn't use leaded glass for long periods. For instance, I put Scotch into my crystal decanter to serve, but never store it in there.

Another thought would be getting some 316 SS bearings. My understanding is that sulfite can pit 304 over time, but the 316 is highly resistant so should be a good long term solution. Obviously for glass carboy users this probably would be a bad idea for fear of breakage, but for barrels and Better Bottle users SS should work fine. Thoughts?

 

[seth8530]

I feel like stainless steel ball bearings are the way to go. What I would do is put them inside of some sort of fermentation bag or pantyhose that I could slowly lower into the carboy. If you used them inside of a better bottle then that would work even better.

I have not heard about any ill effects about stainless steel and alcohol.. But I could be wrong.,

 

[TonyP]

For me, I don't believe in using anything in making wine that's not food grade or food quality, particularly when they're available. I've looked a lot and have never found food grade marbles. Food quality HDPE balls are readily available. In case you're not familiar, many primary fermenters are made of HDPE. HDPE is also the most popular material for reusable water bottles. You can buy food quality 100 HDPE balls for around $5.00 and are available solid or hollow.

Why would you use anything else?

Tony P.

 

[bob1]

I say make it easy. Make a lot more than you need and rack down. Allows you to drink some on the way also.

 

[saramc]

I know MarbleKing in the US makes 100% lead free marbles, but one would need to check with them re: food grade. http://www.marblekingusa.com/Home_Page.php

 

[Deezil]

I was gonna call them but they closed a half-hour ago

 

[TonyP]

If you guys call, mention that the marbles will be in alcohol. It sometimes makes a difference.
Tony P.

 

[seth8530]

For me, I don't believe in using anything in making wine that's not food grade or food quality, particularly when they're available. I've looked a lot and have never found food grade marbles. Food quality HDPE balls are readily available. In case you're not familiar, many primary fermenters are made of HDPE. HDPE is also the most popular material for reusable water bottles. You can buy food quality 100 HDPE balls for around $5.00 and are available solid or hollow.

Why would you use anything else?

Tony P.

Im pretty sure stainless steel is food grade. Isnt that what most K kegs in bear making are made of as well as a lot of their top end brewing equipment and fermentation devices?

 

[TonyP]

Im pretty sure stainless steel is food grade. Isnt that what most K kegs in bear making are made of as well as a lot of their top end brewing equipment and fermentation devices?

Seth, clearly stainless steel is used widely in the food industry from cookware, to utensils. And, in fact, wine is stored in stainless steel when not in barrels. However, there are different grades of stainless steel depending primarily on the ratio of chromium to nickel. There are also different types of stainless steel. So the answer is sometimes. For example, I have stainless steel appliances and wouldn't want to leave red red wine dripping on them for 6 months. Also, I don't know why, but I think it could leave a metallic taste.

Tony P.