Finer Wine Kits

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

sour_grapes

Victim of the Invasion of the Avatar Snatchers
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
13,096
Reaction score
13,933
Location
near Milwaukee
How they separate has to do with molecular weight.
To a VERY VERY good approximation, they do NOT separate. The degree to which they separate is measured in about the 5th decimal place. That is, if you had a headspace that was 50% O2 and 50% Ar, the surface of the wine would see something like 49.995% O2 and 50.005% Ar.

It is useful to purge the headspace with Ar or N2 because you are diminishing the amount of O2 in the headspace. But there is no separation to any practical degree.
 

joeswine

joeswine
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
7,935
Reaction score
1,879
Sometime you have to think outside the box in everything including wine making.
 

Matteo_Lahm

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2021
Messages
53
Reaction score
260
To a VERY VERY good approximation, they do NOT separate. The degree to which they separate is measured in about the 5th decimal place. That is, if you had a headspace that was 50% O2 and 50% Ar, the surface of the wine would see something like 49.995% O2 and 50.005% Ar.

It is useful to purge the headspace with Ar or N2 because you are diminishing the amount of O2 in the headspace. But there is no separation to any practical degree.
very good to know! I imagine this is less of a problem during and at the end of primary fermentation when the wine is still producing CO2.
 

bstnh1

Supporting Members
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
2,151
Location
In the woods of New Hampshire
I just did the first racking on a Tavola Chardonnay. I left it in primary for the full 14 days, with just a cheesecloth cover as the instructions state. There was no sign of any active fermentation. Sediment was loose and fluffy, not compacted at all. Sucked plenty of sediment with auto syphon. Degassing produced no foam at all; didn't see any fine gas bubbles coming up. Wine is very dark for Chardonnay. I do not recommend leaving the FWKs in primary for 14 days. I think I'll stick with my usual schedule of moving to secondary at about 7 days as long as SG is under 1.00. Starting SG was 1.101. When I racked it the SG was .994. That works out to an ABV of about 14%.
 

ratflinger

Supporting Members
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
205
Reaction score
278
Location
South Texas
Brian, 14 days on cheesecloth sounds long. I usually go to a sealed environment a couple of days after I put in the nutrient package. Something about stopping the oxy infiltration as the yeast moves into anaerobic fermentation. I let it sit in my primaries for at least a month, at that time I get little foaming when racking and adding the settling agents. I'm at 3 weeks right now and my Riesling & Muscato are the same color as when I started, a nice amber. But, they are in Spiedels, which being a thick, opaque plastic may tend to darken the apparent color. I'll know more in a couple of weeks when I move them to a clear carboy for settling.
 

bstnh1

Supporting Members
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
2,151
Location
In the woods of New Hampshire
Brian, 14 days on cheesecloth sounds long. I usually go to a sealed environment a couple of days after I put in the nutrient package. Something about stopping the oxy infiltration as the yeast moves into anaerobic fermentation. I let it sit in my primaries for at least a month, at that time I get little foaming when racking and adding the settling agents. I'm at 3 weeks right now and my Riesling & Muscato are the same color as when I started, a nice amber. But, they are in Spiedels, which being a thick, opaque plastic may tend to darken the apparent color. I'll know more in a couple of weeks when I move them to a clear carboy for settling.
Yeah, I know that's long and I have never gone that log with any batch. But since the instruction for the FWK don't mention an airlock until after going to secondary, I thought I'd give it a try to see if there was any benefit other than saving one racking.
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
322
Reaction score
560
Location
Central Texas
Yeah, I know that's long and I have never gone that log with any batch. But since the instruction for the FWK don't mention an airlock until after going to secondary, I thought I'd give it a try to see if there was any benefit other than saving one racking.
@bstnh1 That particular section of the instructions was mentioned earlier in this thread (#917-919). @Matteo_Lahm responded about the wording causing some confusion and what the intent was.
 

She’sgonnakillme

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
131
Reaction score
125
When you move to secondary, I assume you mean you rack off the primary lees? Would you still rack off the primary lees if you were intending to do an E.M. Or just leave it in the primary?
 

She’sgonnakillme

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
131
Reaction score
125
It depends on your primary vessel and how confident you are that it will hold its seal for the duration of EM.
Well my polypropylene bucket with grommet lid seems to be airtight, or at least the airlock bubbles away and I would assume it wouldn’t if it wasn’t a good seal.
 

bstnh1

Supporting Members
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
2,151
Location
In the woods of New Hampshire
@bstnh1 That particular section of the instructions was mentioned earlier in this thread (#917-919). @Matteo_Lahm responded about the wording causing some confusion and what the intent was.
That discussion was concerned with opening the fermenter to punch down skins. But what concerns me is that the instructions mention covering the fermenter opening with cheesecloth at the start, but never say to put it under airlock until after the wine's been racked and put into secondary. With the fast ferment that these kits are known for, I feel it's taking an unnecessary risk to let it go that long with just a permeable cover. As I mentioned earlier, when I racked my Chardonnay after 15 days, there was no sign of any gas - no foam, no minute bubbles and no action in the airlock after degassing.
 

MarkSC

Junior
Joined
Jan 16, 2021
Messages
9
Reaction score
1
I had 0 visible CO2 when I racked my merlot to the carboy. It was surprising and welcome that I did not need to degas. By comparison, I usually need to degas Winemaker kits for at least 15 minutes. Any idea why these kits produce so little remnant CO2?
 

Matteo_Lahm

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2021
Messages
53
Reaction score
260
Good morning all,
Just to clarify, you can use cheese cloth or a lightly fit cover while fermentation is active. When it comes time to close up the container, remove any cloth and seal the bucket. Standard fermentation buckets come with a port for an airlock. You should use one during that 14 day period once you close it up. I will look at the instructions again. I thought that was clear but I will make necessary revisions if it isn’t. Once the bucket is closed, an airlock is necessary. You want to maintain a nice pressurized carbon dioxide environment to protect the wine. As we have already established, there is some mixing between oxygen and CO2 however, if that bucket is closed there won’t be and that’s what we recommend.
as always, your insights are appreciated and noted.
Matteo
 

bstnh1

Supporting Members
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
2,151
Location
In the woods of New Hampshire
Good morning all,
Just to clarify, you can use cheese cloth or a lightly fit cover while fermentation is active. When it comes time to close up the container, remove any cloth and seal the bucket. Standard fermentation buckets come with a port for an airlock. You should use one during that 14 day period once you close it up. I will look at the instructions again. I thought that was clear but I will make necessary revisions if it isn’t. Once the bucket is closed, an airlock is necessary. You want to maintain a nice pressurized carbon dioxide environment to protect the wine. As we have already established, there is some mixing between oxygen and CO2 however, if that bucket is closed there won’t be and that’s what we recommend.
as always, your insights are appreciated and noted.
Matteo
What do you mean by "once you close it up? When do you "close it up"? I don't see that in the instructions.
 

Matteo_Lahm

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2021
Messages
53
Reaction score
260
When you get to 1.01 SG, the instructions say to close the top of the primary fermentation bucket and leave it closed until the 15th day. Standard primary buckets have the top with the snaps and a hole to fit an airlock. I’m going to review that verbiage and revise it to make it more clear.
 

She’sgonnakillme

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
131
Reaction score
125
When you get to 1.01 SG, the instructions say to close the top of the primary fermentation bucket and leave it closed until the 15th day. Standard primary buckets have the top with the snaps and a hole to fit an airlock. I’m going to review that verbiage and revise it to make it more clear.
Matt
Why specifically 15 days? Is that just a general assertion that by then it will be fermented to “dry”? Would it be better to leave that date open ended and state “below SG .998”, I think that’s what other kits state. I find exact timelines on kits rarely work out as intended.
 

bstnh1

Supporting Members
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
2,151
Location
In the woods of New Hampshire
When you get to 1.01 SG, the instructions say to close the top of the primary fermentation bucket and leave it closed until the 15th day. Standard primary buckets have the top with the snaps and a hole to fit an airlock. I’m going to review that verbiage and revise it to make it more clear.
Thank you! I'm sure everyone on here really appreciates the way you review these posts and respond.
 

Latest posts

Top