Fermenter failure

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My husband and I have been wine making hobbyists for around 20 years. We average around 6-8 six gallon batches a year, typically a variety of berries or plums. Mostly fruit is found and picked in our local area. We typically use fresh or frozen fruit that we have picked and stored until we have the volume, time and jugs available to put it together. Two years ago we made black raspberry wine in August. The must spoiled in the fermenter. This was unusual as this fruit has been one of the easiest to get going. We weren't certain what happened. Cried a bit and moved on. Today we had to pour out two 6 gallon batches of raspberry wine. This was painful! Our basement is cool. We unthawed the berries and brought up the must to 70 degrees with heat tapes before adding the camden. We then always wait a full 24 hours before adding the yeast. We started seeing the film on the top three days later. We would really like to figure this out so we can prevent this loss again. Fortunately this has only happened twice in our careers! Is the Camden not clearing because of the cool temperature and then the wine yeast is also killed? Did we have some weird mold on the berries that started before freezing and storing them? Is there something else going on with wine chemistry that I just don't understand?
 
If it happened in just a few days it could be the fruit, cleanliness of the equipment, or your basement. Hard to know without more details. I’ve made wild blackberry port for 5 years running, never used PMBS, Kmeta, Camden, however you refer to it. Just thawed and pitched with a rehydrated yeast, not just sprinkled it on. So my guess, again with no details it’s only a guess, it’s probably not the fruit, did you inspect for bugs? By local do you mean wild picked or farmers market?
 
If it happened in just a few days it could be the fruit, cleanliness of the equipment, or your basement. Hard to know without more details. I’ve made wild blackberry port for 5 years running, never used PMBS, Kmeta, Camden, however you refer to it. Just thawed and pitched with a rehydrated yeast, not just sprinkled it on. So my guess, again with no details it’s only a guess, it’s probably not the fruit, did you inspect for bugs? By local do you mean wild picked or farmers market?
These were wild picked black raspberries and cultivated raspberries. The other possible variable is for the past couple of years my brother has been helping pick black raspberries at the edge of the woods by his hay fields and freezing them for me. My 85 year old mother has also been freezing her cultivated raspberries as well to add to what I grow or pick wild. They like the wine and want me to keep bringing it for family gatherings or have little stash in their pantry so they are helping me. I have recalled how quickly these berries mold if picked a little damp or I wondered if they sat in a pick-up in the heat while he finished baling hay. I don't witness how quickly they inspect and freeze their berries but they are reasonable people. I talked about it with my brother after the first black raspberry failure and it sounded like he made every attempt to get them frozen quickly. By the time I get them I can't see the quality as they are mush when they unthaw. This is a new problem after alot of years doing this but coincidently started about the time they invested in picking for me. Not pointing any blame, just trying to figure it out and fix it.
 
Do you have any pictures of the film on the must, or could you describe the film? Seeing it could help identify what it might be.

…and welcome to WMT!
Too late for pictures as we discarded the two fermenters yesterday. It was whitish cloudy and lacey looking on top. The underside was clear as it was being siphoned off.
 
Would you be able to describe the wine you had to discard (taste, smell, anything else that appeared off…)? Did you happen to notice anything similar in the primary fermentation (either at the beginning or near the end)?

I had an experience that I believe in my case was probably lactobacillus, the thread is here. Microbes will display differently and have a variety of effects on your wine. Narrowing down what you experienced in the wine could help to identify what it was and then potentially how it got there and what you could have done or do differently in the future. In my case, I think some junk grapes got it and it wasn’t sulfited enough based on the extra load of microbes. The folks here were super helpful in what to do.

If there were some microbes on the fruit prior to freezing, let me rephrase that… freezing would kill many of the microbes on the fruit. Sulfiting after thawing should handle the rest based on load and amount of sulfite used. Did you sulfite during thawing or afterwards? Afterwards could potentially allow some growth and increased load during thawing, plus food, which could be in abundance until the yeast take over. The effects of the microbes on taste would potentially still be in the wine afterwards.
 
A lot of microbial infections require oxygen to develop and develops from the top down. I'm in the process racking wine after MLF has completed. They all have been unprotected for 3 months and a couple developed acetobacter. All I do is vacuum a couple inches of the top, clean the neck and take a whiff. The wine below is always fine.
 
Here’s another example, I looked at my concord today and it had a white lacy formation on the top. My first thought was, “Oh crap”. It tasted ok, didn’t smell bad at all, they didn’t drop, and so I took a sample to look at under the microscope. The pieces are very jagged and crystalline looking. I believe it’s just undissolved kmeta particles or something in the kmeta powder that didn’t dissolve. I’m lucky to have a microscope, but it has been immensely helpful.
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I usually add it to the bottom of the empty carboy and like you let the racking process mix it up. I’ve begun mixing it with a little wine ahead of time to be sure it’s mixed in and then continue the racking. No idea why it always happens with the concord… it’s always the concord... LOL

@CameronRoadCellars has any of this been helpful?
 
Do you add the sulfite after racking? I do mine halfway through and let the racking process do the rest.
We do it initially in the primary fermenter. We have waited until the frozen berries are up to a reasonable temperature before adding the campden tablets. We then wait for 24 hours before adding the yeast. We had read about doing that a long time ago and not really sure that is necessary? Is that correct? We also just rack after that. Usually two times is sufficient. The only wine that always needs more is the plum and we typically filter that.
 
A lot of microbial infections require oxygen to develop and develops from the top down. I'm in the process racking wine after MLF has completed. They all have been unprotected for 3 months and a couple developed acetobacter. All I do is vacuum a couple inches of the top, clean the neck and take a whiff. The wine below is always fine.
Thats interesting. We never gave it a thought that any would be usable but that makes sense that it may only be bad at the top and we could save the bulk below. I hope it never happens again to find out!
 
We do it initially in the primary fermenter. We have waited until the frozen berries are up to a reasonable temperature before adding the campden tablets. We then wait for 24 hours before adding the yeast. We had read about doing that a long time ago and not really sure that is necessary? Is that correct? We also just rack after that. Usually two times is sufficient. The only wine that always needs more is the plum and we typically filter that.
Necessary may depend on how clean your berries are at freezing, and also preference to sulfite or not. I pick blackberries late in the day, wash them and immediately put in the freezer. No sulfites, done this for 5 years now with no bad batches. My berries are still crusty/frozen/half-thawed when I pour boiled water/sugar solution over them, so they never really get to room temperature. As long as the must is within 10 degrees of the yeast pitching temperature I’ll pitch it.

If I was buying fruit at a road stand or similar I might sulfite to be safe. You never know how well the fruit is handled.
 
We do it initially in the primary fermenter. We have waited until the frozen berries are up to a reasonable temperature before adding the campden tablets. We then wait for 24 hours before adding the yeast. We had read about doing that a long time ago and not really sure that is necessary? Is that correct? We also just rack after that. Usually two times is sufficient. The only wine that always needs more is the plum and we typically filter that.
If you're asking whether it's necessary to wait 24 hours after using kmeta or Campden tablets before pitching the yeast, the answer is yes. Kmeta/Campden tablets kill off stuff growing on the fruit, including yeast. It takes 18-24 hours for it to dissipate, so that it won't kill your new yeast when you pitch it.
 
* first of all welcome to Wine Making Talk, you are in hay and berry country, where?

Is the Camden not clearing because of the cool temperature and then the wine yeast is also killed? Did we have some weird mold on the berries that started before freezing and storing them? Is there something else going on with wine chemistry that I just don't understand?
* ALL fruit will contain all the spoilage organisms that are capable of destroying a wine!
I describe The process of making wine as putting up fences that are capable of selectively farming the family of organism we want. One fence is pH (how acidic) the must is. Another fence is high sugar (osmotic pressure). Another fence is lack of oxygen (aerobic organisms). And our most modern fence is Campden/ potassium metabisulphite. There are more tools that can shepherd the fermentation where you want.
* freezing will not change a microbial population. Freezing will kill insects.
* Do you run pH? As with home canning how acidic the fruit is keeps a lot of organisms out. My goal in making fruit wine is to be between pH 3.2 and 3.5 (water bath canning puts this fence at pH 4.0) , , , (pH testing is done in your local high school chemistry class/ also folks who do salt water fish) It is worth while to find where the next batch is. As in the water bath canner below pH 4.0 there is low risk of food poisoning but risk the wine gets infected and tastes bad.
* Putting metabisulphite in your must can be done while the fruit is thawing. This is a chemical and will react to microbes at 35F as well as 70F. If you are building up contamination on a plastic primary I would suggest doing a double dose as break up fruit off the freezer and add and then once you can stir to get a uniform slurry add a second treatment. Commercial yeast is quite tolerant of SO2 , ,, meta reacts and drops down to 10ppm fairly fast, ,, your major down side is some pigments as pie cherry red will turn clear, raspberry has a stable pigment.
* Have you had an infection? A floating microbial mat should feel soft/ possibly greasy. Again the local high school will have a microscope and can diagnose if it is a round (cocci/ bacteria) or a long filament (mold family)
* Microbes grow in waves. As with milk a clotting family grows (yoghurt) followed by a proteolitic (bitter break down products). For a modern wine must we put in a known strain which is fast and clean flavor. We want the sacchromyces yeast to over power everything else and get the fence of alcohol up to 5% where the beverage starts to be resistant to infection. It would not hurt to use a starter and help the first wave of microbes.
* dirty hardware? Rubber and plastics which are cracked/ scratched will hold enough residue to inoculate future batches. A heat treatment at 180F can eliminate the risk but most of us get a new plastic pail. Nylon press bags will survive hot water in a kettle.
* Air/ most wine infections require air (ie they grow on the surface). Yeast in the first phase need air to build cell walls but at 1/3 sugar reduction cell reproduction is done and they use anaerobic metabolism. If you are having problems, there isn’t any reason to stay in the open (aerobic) fermentor after 1.050 gravity. I aim for 1.020 since I am looking for fast CO2 production to create an anaerobic carboy./ keep this fence working.
* The common wine infections do not produce food poisoning toxins. A bad tasting wine gets tossed for flavor not safety. Many infections can be recovered from by adding a double dose of meta. (normal is 50ppm, taste threshold is 100ppm)
* Meta prevents oxidation, I stopped acetaldehyde flavor (oxydized ethyl alcohol) by dosing 50ppm every time I open a carboy.
* you could build higher microbial stability by targeting 13 to 14% alcohol instead of 11%. A natural (unpasteurized) beverage at 5% requires refrigeration to prevent eventual infection.

I will guess you haven’t looked at microbiology. This thread has some basics: A Course on Wine: INDUSTRIAL WEBINARS by suppliers
 
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