Fermentation vessels: Wide and low vs. Tall and thinner

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BarrelMonkey

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Being practical, above all else, Brutes work perfectly, don't cost much and are perfectly adequate. There is no "cancer label" on them from the state of california. I live in California, have bought Brutes here, and you are making this up.

Brutes are used all the time in California wineries, including the one where I work. Not for primary fermentation - they're too small! - but routinely for developing yeast cultures (as well as sanitizing equipment).
 

balatonwine

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Being practical, above all else, Brutes work perfectly, don't cost much and are perfectly adequate. There is no "cancer label" on them from the state of california. I live in California, have bought Brutes here, and you are making this up.

I already posted about this in my comment. I there only suggested you look it up. Sadly, you were too lazy to look it up, or if you did -- fully understand it, and simply selected to say I was making it up.

Side note: Simply being able to buy something has no bearing on fit for purpose. Different issues.

Well, here to help the very lazy (since I am forever helpful and kind) is a link to a the rubber maid web site for a Brute can:


And a quote from that above web site about this bin, and they include this information because .. well these bins may fall within CA label law:

Proposition 65 is an initiative originally approved by CA voters to address their growing concerns about exposure to toxic chemicals. It became the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, better known by its original name of Proposition 65. Prop 65 requires the State of CA to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer or birth defects or other reproductive harm, etc. The chemicals include additives or ingredients in pesticides, common household products, food, drugs, dyes, or solvents. The program is administered by The Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment (OEHHA) which is part of the CA Environmental Protection Agency. Where required, warnings must be included with the product’s labeling.
Link: https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65

And note: Rubbermaid does not need to include a label if they are selling their bins as e.g. trash cans. Only if they are selling them for wine making. Which I doubt they are. So absence of warning label is not necessarily relevant. They comply with the law. A per fit for their declared purpose. If you use if for something else is another issue (and thus maybe not fit for its actual use and purpose -- different issue. If so, then the error is yours and you bear full responsibility).

Also note: Rubbermaid may include this warning at their web site not due to simple label laws, but maybe also to "stupidity laws". That is, even if they do not add a warning label to the physical product on site, they are covered at the web site under the "any reasonable person" legal argument. As any "reasonable person" would also see the warning at their web site.

Don't believe me? The "reasonable person" legal defense is now quite in vogue these days by some who got tangled..... Wonder if it will work for them or Rubbermaid.... I am betting or Rubbermaid. Not so much on the others.... :cool:

Hope this helps.

And again: If you want to make *your * wine in these bins, that is your issue. That is none of my business. But if any wineries use them in CA actually use them to ferment wine (not just clean equipment) I would like to see the names of those. As consumers should know what might be in their wine... Just saying....
 
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balatonwine

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Addendum:

To help with maybe some confusion and to prevent arguments here, many of these "flexible" plastics like rubbermaid bins may contain BPA (an acronym for Bisphenol A) or other chemicals.

And BPA, yes, is a problem for many.


But you can decide with your own additional research.

And go from there. You may think...

1) Good grief..... A hell of a lot of nothing about nothing. Man get a life.
2) Oh my! I am gonna die!!!
3) Dude... chill. Whatever.

But please.... I suggest no one say I am "making things up". I do not do that. You can disagree with me. And many do. But really... Seriously.... Rethink such silly declaritive ad hominem comments.
 
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Raptor99

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I don't use Brutes, but I am curious about this. These Brute containers are designed to be trash cans, and there is no guarantee that they are safe for food contact. The web page at the link you provided gives a list of types of certifications under the heading "Certifications & Regulatory Information." It mentions California Prop 65 as well as NSF certification, but does not tell if or how these rules apply to this product. It seems more like a general list of types of certifications.

But Brute does make a product that is certified food safe: BRUTE® Food Handling Containers | RCP I don't think that they sell those at Home Depot. Amazon have a 20 gal. version that NSF certified safe for food storage: https://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-Commercial-1868861-Brute-Gallon/dp/B00FSIGRM4

 

CDrew

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The white ones I use are both food safe and nsf certified. Stamped right on it. I think that applies to all white and gray Brutes. The other colors lack the nsf certificate but are still labeled food safe.

The part number starts with FS which is their food safe designation.
 

distancerunner

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The specifications state that it meets NSF Standard 2. That's probably a good thing. But what is NSF Standard 2? Unfortunately, a ten minute search of the interwebs doesn't show a copy of NSF Standard 2. At least not without hitting a paywall of some kind.

What we need in this thread is a food industry expert to chime in.
 
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Rice_Guy

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An observer point of view, ,,,, not a Dow Chemical view
* there are lots of applications where Rubbermaid products are used, basically if you eat product made in the US you have been exposed to Rubbermaid. The use is greater the smaller the production plant, macrobins dominate larger facilities, ,, again plastics though.
* the US food industry depends on plastics and is increasing their use. We depend on film suppliers to be honest and they depend on their resin suppliers to be honest. We will see more plastics in the US because we are moving toward smaller single serving containers as opposed to mom at home cooking for ten kids.
* NADICK (military food lab) is the best independent research for food contact plastics.
* acute exposure is important, anything that gets a consumer sick this week will get recalled, chronic exposure is mainly info from rat studies and goes back to work that suppliers do to gain FDA approval for food contact. Some applications as silicones in paper for fried fast food or high temp cook ware I wonder about, ,,, but it has gone through the approval process.
* if you look at posts over the years I say “FOOD GRADE”. Industry is very dependent on the suppliers to label their plastic bins/ films. I have worked in the factory and know s#/t happens everywhere, both suppliers and the competition.
* temperature increases the extraction of plasticizers! I will never microwave foods in flexible films even if the container is labeled microwave safe.
* solvents increase extraction, on single layer films we will see bleed as oil pushing the printed label off the package surface. We “fix” the issues by using coextruded films to combine properties as solvent (ink) resistance/ oxygen resistance/ ease of melting in a machine. ,,, alcohol is a solvent so packaging involving alcohol takes this into consideration. ,,, Again we have to trust suppliers.
* vendors tell us that pin holes exist and then rate the effect on shelf life.
* I have used Rubbermaid, I am tempted to say in every plant I have worked in, ,,,, some as meat going onto pizza it is obvious that oil related bleeding is happening on the plastic and in that plant it is what the plant manager found that plastic to do the task. ,,, no he didn’t have grad school, he made production happen.
 
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balatonwine

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I don't use Brutes, but I am curious about this. These Brute containers are designed to be trash cans, and there is no guarantee that they are safe for food contact. The web page at the link you provided gives a list of types of certifications under the heading "Certifications & Regulatory Information." It mentions California Prop 65 as well as NSF certification, but does not tell if or how these rules apply to this product. It seems more like a general list of types of certifications.

I mentioned this in a prior post. NSF regulations are complicated. NSF is not really clear to those except food industry professionals and corporate lawyers. Here is more specific information from Rubbermaid at their search engine for such info (even it seems clear at first, but... still not clear after some thinking on my part -- but IANAL**):


But Brute does make a product that is certified food safe: BRUTE® Food Handling Containers | RCP I don't think that they sell those at Home Depot. Amazon have a 20 gal. version that NSF certified safe for food storage: Rubbermaid Commercial Products Feed and Seed BRUTE Container with Lid, 20 Gallon Trash Can, Food Storage: Waste Bins: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
FWIIW, same info that is at Rubbermaid's web site and at the links I already provided.

Which is why I simply say. Do what you want with your own wine. I guess you will have to decide on risks based on imperfect information. Personally, a bit more money spent on known, certified, containers, is worth the piece of mind. But, otherwise, simply be honest with others that may drink what you make, and about how it was made. If you get into selling your wine, you may want to go then with proven and certified products designed for wine making only.

Hope this helps.

** IANAL means, "I Am Not A Lawyer". Contrary to maybe a slightly different rendition with a space after the "I". Then... well.... that may be true. :cool:
 

JB1956

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For what it's worth, I just bought a 20 gallon gray vented Brute trash can from Home Depot. The SKU is: FG262000GRAY. It has a production date of 3/22 and does carry the Food Safe & NSF logos on the bottom of the can. (Highlighted in the attached pic for clarity) I also found this statement from Rubbermaid in another thread.

Rubbermaid Commercial Products is proud to announce the expansion of NSF/ANSI Standard 2 Food Equipment and Standard 21 Thermoplastic Refuse Container certification to all standard colors and sizes of round and square BRUTE bases. Certification also applies to all standard round lid colors as well as square lids in gray and white. Our Brutes are also BPA Free.
FoodSafe Brute.jpg
 

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