Every ferment REALLY IS different

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BigDaveK

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I started 2 almost identical batches of raspberry wine in the basement to see the affect of cooler temperatures. The only difference is size - a 1-gallon batch destined to be a dessert wine (step feeding, another yeast will be added) and a 3-gallon table wine. Starting SG was 1.090 for both. One gallon started with a half packet of yeast, three gallon with a full packet.
After 48 hours:
1 gallon - 1.048, 61F
3 gallon - 1.072, 64F
I expected some difference just because of the size, temperature certainly, but the large difference in SG was a little surprising.
 

BigDaveK

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This is probably significant, as the full packet will produce a larger colony faster.
The ambient temperature of the basement is 58F and this was a quick experiment to see how lower temperatures affect fermentation. Compared to my other ferments at 70-75F, not at all. I'm surprised.
I'm getting confusing information. I've read flavor and color in fruit wines is better at lower temps. But I've read papers saying yeast produce the most esters at higher temps, 75-80F, red wine temps. Looks like this will be a multi-year experiment. It's also possible that different temps at different stages of the ferment will be best. Damn rabbit hole! What did I get myself into?!😅
 
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I've had surprisingly fast ferments in the low-to-mid 60's F. This is contrary to what I was originally taught. Other things such as "rack off the gross lees ASAP" vs EM have me questioning other truisms.
 

BigDaveK

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I've had surprisingly fast ferments in the low-to-mid 60's F. This is contrary to what I was originally taught. Other things such as "rack off the gross lees ASAP" vs EM have me questioning other truisms.
I know!!!
I wonder if the "truisms" and rules of thumb are for the benefit of new winemakers? Or maybe they're simply being repeated without critical thought because that's what somebody else said?
About 3 months ago I started sur lie AND batonnage. The benefits sound great and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. PLUS I don't have to rack and wonder what I'm going to use to top up. 🤣
 

Raptor99

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I'm getting confusing information. I've read flavor and color in fruit wines is better at lower temps. But I've read papers saying yeast produce the most esters at higher temps, 75-80F, red wine temps.
I think that both are true. Lower fermentation temperatures help to preserve the fruit flavor. But with higher temperatures, some yeasts produce more esters. So the trade-off is between preserving more of the fruit flavor vs. increasing the desirable esters produced by the yeast.

An example is M29 - French Saison Ale, which I am considering for mead. It produces more flavors at higher temperatures:
...creating distinctive beers with spicy, fruity and peppery notes. Ideal for fermentation of farmhouse style beer. While this strain is a strong fermenter even at lower than optimum temps, the more significant difference is with taste; warmer temps bring out more pronounced flavours...
(Source: https://help.mangrovejacks.com/hc/e...Beer-Wine-Cider-Mead-Yeast-strain-information)

On the other hand, according to the data sheet for K1-V1116, floral esthers are produced at fermentation temperatures below 16 degrees C (60.8 degrees F) (Lalvin ICV K1-V1116™ | Lallemand Brewing):
When fermented at low temperatures (below 16°C) and with the right addition of nutrients, Lalvin K1™ (V1116) is one of the yeast producing the most floral esters (isoamyl acetate, hexyl acetate, phenyl ethyl acetate).

My conclusion is that you should carefully read the datasheet for the yeast(s) you are considering using. The rules of thumb might apply to some yeasts but not others.
 

Rice_Guy

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This is probably significant, as the full packet will produce a larger colony faster.
A full packet in three gallons of must translates to 1 2/3 gram per gallon
a half packet in one gallon translates to 2.5 grams per gallon, ,,, the data fits your theory

when I have run 4 liter size ferments in a temperature controlled refrigerator the actual wine temp tends to be 2F above the air temp. ,> ,> yeast respiration is exothermic. By the time the gravity is at 1.010 or 1.015 air temp and wine temp start matching each other. ,,, to get a reasonable size colony I have always grown low temp ferments at room temp hold a day/ overnight then moved to the refrigerator. , , , I try to avoid getting an infection with a cold tolerant organism.
 

BigDaveK

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A full packet in three gallons of must translates to 1 2/3 gram per gallon
a half packet in one gallon translates to 2.5 grams per gallon, ,,, the data fits your theory
Yes, I know one gram doesn't sound like much but each gram dryweight has approximately 4.87x10^10 cells and each cell will reproduce 10-25 times depending on strain. I've been reading papers on yeast and and I'm fascinated by how incredibly complex the little buggers are!
 

BigDaveK

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My conclusion is that you should carefully read the datasheet for the yeast(s) you are considering using. The rules of thumb might apply to some yeasts but not others.
I usually defer to the manufacturer datasheet if for no other reason than the assumption that they should know their product. But I supplement that with what I read from other sources. The more I read the more I'm struck that each yeast strain is like a completely different animal. I find it so incredibly interesting.
 

Rice_Guy

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I usually defer to the manufacturer datasheet if for no other reason than the assumption that they should know their product. But I supplement that with what I read from other sources. The more I read the more I'm struck that each yeast strain is like a completely different animal. I find it so incredibly interesting.
The theory behind the data sheet is that enough cells should be added so that they overwhelm any native yeast that are there plus other families of bacteria. If the fermentor is using sterile media that wouldn’t be critical but the normal is to grow a strain out in stages, an Erlenmeyer flask > larger flask > stainless tank > a tank of beer > second tank of beer etc. ,,, There is some change in genetics so a strain in beer will be redone from the pure named strain roughly every five tanks. Sitting close to Milwaukee, the spent yeast are trucked out to a drying factory where they become animal feed. The yeast that are sold/ manufactured have a collection number which in the US should go back to a collection at Davis.
Similar fermenters exist producing natural bacterial flavors as butter buds and natural cheese flavor or zanthan gum.

Dave, I am curious what was on your reading list last month.
 

BigDaveK

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Dave, I am curious what was on your reading list last month.
I finally started reading The Fourth Turning by Strauss and Howe but you probably mean wine related.:D

This is a sample of the titles. I usually save a PDF and not the links. Sorry. If you were interested I could attach them. Maybe there would be interest to start a thread in the Tutorial forum for scientific papers?

Reductive winemaking for white wines - Gibson
Nitrogen nutrition of yeasts - Granes, Medina, Roux
Glucose and fructose fermentation by wine yeasts in media containing complex nitrogen sources - Junior, Batistote
Influence of pH on the the growth and ethanol production of free and immobilized Saccharomyces c. cells - Buzas, Dallmann, Szajani
Yeast lifespan and its impact on food fermentations - Aranda, Orazco
Wine fermentation microbiome - Pinto, Pinho, etc
Vertical distribution of yeast in stainless steel tanks during wine fermentation - Porret, Gafner

Like I said, a sampling. There's a boatload more I'd love to read but I don't have the credentials.
 

BigDaveK

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Dave, you have an interesting list, my downloads are similar but tend to focus as this fall everything that is a free download on the web about reductive flavor, will have to look at these. :)
I might be crazy (or maybe it's my imagination) but I'd swear searches from, say, ten years ago resulted in more interesting results and more free results.
 

Raptor99

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@BigDaveK It would be great to have all the links to these. Maybe we need a forum for research papers. Or a research area to post the pdfs.

Most of these would fall into the Wine Making Science forum.
 

BigDaveK

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@BigDaveK It would be great to have all the links to these. Maybe we need a forum for research papers. Or a research area to post the pdfs.

Most of these would fall into the Wine Making Science forum.
Sorry, I rarely save links to papers. I usually save them as a PDF so I can read them whenever on multiple devices.

I agree, a special thread or forum for scientific articles would be great and I mentioned that in message #12. Some of the papers do say "free" and others say nothing. After thinking about it more my opinion is closer to @winemaker81 now. It would probably need it's own moderator just to be on the safe side.

I do have one link for you, though. Incredible book and a few sections apply to wine making. Chapter 9 in Section 4 explains how yeast work. Excellent! And "The Alcohol Alphabet" is an incredibly detailed glossary of everything fermenting and alcohol. I;m trying to find a used copy for my shelf but the cheapest so far is $140!!!!!!

 
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