WineXpert Eclipse Stags Leap Merlot

[Ajmassa]

I say "purportedly" because I recall reading it, but don't know where and can't verify. The context was an article about aging fine wines and the general implication was that the larger format bottles age longer, bigger the bottle, longer it ages. A carboy seems to be large format.



Personally, I think that a sweetened wine with sorbate in it is more of an early drinker anyway, so if it's tasty and properly degassed and clear, I don't hesitate to bottle those.......

It's a Rosè kit I made specifically to enjoy this summer. Just under 5 months old. I'm chomping at the bit to bottle/drink/give out. Labels will be in soon (purchased from noontime labels) and will be bottling this week. Though Its been difficult for me to distinguish the sorbate taste from the natural fruit notes in the wine.

 

[SouthernChemist]

Rose wines do not generally benefit from extended aging like many reds or some whites. Many are meant to be drank on the younger side (with a few notable exceptions). As long as the wine is clarified and degassed (far more important factors to think of when bottling), there's nothing to stop you from bottling it. I wouldn't let the fact that you added sorbate, which would be necessary if it is not dry, keep you from bottling the wine.

 

[Ajmassa]

Rose wines do not generally benefit from extended aging like many reds or some whites. Many are meant to be drank on the younger side (with a few notable exceptions). As long as the wine is clarified and degassed (far more important factors to think of when bottling), there's nothing to stop you from bottling it. I wouldn't let the fact that you added sorbate, which would be necessary if it is not dry, keep you from bottling the wine.

I did in fact go dry. I just added the included sorbate while working on autopilot accidentally. And now I have just been waiting for the lingering sorbate taste to leave before i dish it all out. I'm not looking to age it, just making sure the wine isn't anything less than it should be. -- which it isn't at this point. There was definitely some improvement since Labor Day and I'm glad I waited.

 

[Frosty]

I didn't really consider rose a serious wine until visiting rural France. My wife and I stayed in Sabel surrounded by vineyards. The Tourist/ Info centre also was a win tasting place with local wines. The roses were great late afternoon wines out on the balcony overlooking vineyards.
I love winemaking. A big part of the fun is learning how they fit in the local culture both new world and old. I am looking forward to the Eclipse LR coming out soon (Nocturnal) that is a French blend.
Best wishes.
Frosty

 

[GaDawg]

That may be true for some folks, but for me aging in bulk has several advantages:

John, I think you should bulk age all you want, It's your wine! I think each of us should process our wine just the way we see fit, after all it is your wine.

 

[Frosty]

What I had read 10 years ago was that bulk aging and bottle aging do different things. The bulk help blend and ensure a uniform taste and the bottle really integretes the flavours. I did a more recent search that suggests little difference except if one adjusts the wine.
With this hobby I always learn, often finding what I believe being challenged. However the kits are pretty robust leaving lots of room for individual preference.

 

[SouthernChemist]

I think consistency and ease of storage are some of the more practical reasons to bulk age. Not everyone has the space to store ~30 wine bottles (per batch) for 1-2 years, for example. This also prevents you from drinking the wine too early, as well!

 

[tjgaul]

I think consistency and ease of storage are some of the more practical reasons to bulk age. Not everyone has the space to store ~30 wine bottles (per batch) for 1-2 years, for example. This also prevents you from drinking the wine too early, as well!

I will give a vote for bulk aging strictly on the basis of inhibiting early consumption. As noted above, it also allows for final tweaking after some aging time when the flavor profile has developed and it's easier to determine what changes are desired.

I have a blackberry zinfandel that's 8 months old that I had plans to bottle twice. Both times I decided to back sweeten it (minimally) & I still am uncommitted as to whether I'm through tweaking it yet. If I had went ahead and bottled it I'd be stuck with a case of decent wine instead of possibly adding another case of really great wine to the cellar. I figure it's not hurting it to sit in the 3 gal carboy for a little longer and I still have the potential to make something really interesting.

 

[AJP]

I will be starting this kit in a week or 2.

I've read this complete thread 3 times and have a couple questions that I need to get straightened out before I start the kit.

1) I will certainly leave out the Sorbate.
2) I'll put the oak powder in the mesh bag with the skins.
3) I'll change the yeast from EC-1118 to either: RC-212 or ??? (thoughts?)
4) To minimize the loss of wine during the first racking, I'll run some of the leavings through a sieve/filter so I don't have to move to a smaller carboy and/or top up. (thoughts?)

Other than that, I'll probably follow the directions except for a longer aging schedule.

Thanks,
AJ

 

[J-Hat]

Disclaimer: i did not read the whole thread, and i have not done this specific kit. So if it is n/a please disregard.

If for some reason you get oak chips instead of oak powder i would not put those in with the skins, when you squeeze the bag to extract juice it does not feel the best..

 

[jgmann67]

I will be starting this kit in a week or 2.

I've read this complete thread 3 times and have a couple questions that I need to get straightened out before I start the kit.

1) I will certainly leave out the Sorbate.
2) I'll put the oak powder in the mesh bag with the skins.
3) I'll change the yeast from EC-1118 to either: RC-212 or ??? (thoughts?)
4) To minimize the loss of wine during the first racking, I'll run some of the leavings through a sieve/filter so I don't have to move to a smaller carboy and/or top up. (thoughts?)

Other than that, I'll probably follow the directions except for a longer aging schedule.

Thanks,
AJ

AJ -

* dropping your oak powder in the bag with the grape skins will go a long way in avoiding wine loss between transfers.

* For Merlot, RC-212, BM45, BM4x4 and D47 - I've heard of people using any of those and they're readily available. I'd go with whatever flips your flavor-profile cookie (and definitely do something other than EC-1118).

* Try to maximize your wine's exposure to the grape skins - you can do them loose, but that adds work on the backend when racking, or you can ferment at a minimally acceptable temp to slow the fermentation process down a little. Maybe look into extended maceration. But, with any of these ideas, try to limit your wine's exposure to air.

* Bulk age for 6 months minimum before bottling.

 

[AJP]

Disclaimer: i did not read the whole thread, and i have not done this specific kit. So if it is n/a please disregard.

If for some reason you get oak chips instead of oak powder i would not put those in with the skins, when you squeeze the bag to extract juice it does not feel the best..

Thanks for the input, I hadn't thought about that.
Luckily it won't apply to this kit, as there is oak powder (used during primary and leads to a bunch of crud at bottom). And there are oak chips for after racking/carboy/secondary.

AJ

 

[AJP]

AJ -

* dropping your oak powder in the bag with the grape skins will go a long way in avoiding wine loss between transfers.

* For Merlot, RC-212, BM45, BM4x4 and D47 - I've heard of people using any of those and they're readily available. I'd go with whatever flips your flavor-profile cookie (and definitely do something other than EC-1118).

* Try to maximize your wine's exposure to the grape skins - you can do them loose, but that adds work on the backend when racking, or you can ferment at a minimally acceptable temp to slow the fermentation process down a little. Maybe look into extended maceration. But, with any of these ideas, try to limit your wine's exposure to air.

* Bulk age for 6 months minimum before bottling.

JG, thanks for the great input. I actually thought about doing the grape skins loose and even doing a delestage to limit the tannin extraction from the seeds. I know it would be a little extra work, but this is a hobby!

If that isn't a good idea, let me know. I've been reading the Pambianchi book and am in that weird place were too much information is bouncing around inside my brain! In a month or 2, all this data will organize itself and start making even more sense.

Regarding fermentation temperature, with a very cool basement and the ability to use a FermWrap/controller, I should be able to 'choose' the temperature I ferment at (within reason). My current Moscato is hanging out around 64/65F, so I assume anything above that is doable for this Merlot.

Thanks again,
AJ

 

[jgmann67]

JG, thanks for the great input. I actually thought about doing the grape skins loose and even doing a delestage to limit the tannin extraction from the seeds. I know it would be a little extra work, but this is a hobby!

I just learned a new word :

Delestage does well to introduce oxygen into the early process to stabilize fruit and colour, and to encourage the joining up of harsh tannin molecules into softer ones, and minimizes the impact of seed tannins.​

I'd be interested to know if you do this and how it comes out. I'm hesitant to go to the extremes like extended maceration (and/or this) with a premium kit. I limit my tweakery to only the stuff around the edges (i.e. subbing out yeasts, adding oaks and tannins, throwing the sorbate away, longer term aging) for the high end kits.

 

[Ajmassa]

How much tannin is actually being extracted from seeds during fermentation though? I thought those harsh seed tannins stay with the seeds unless put through heavy duty pressing.
If so, Delestage sounds like it would benefit an all-grape batch no doubt, but would it make difference in a kit with skins pack? (Seed removal with oxygenation as a byproduct). Im thinking this because of the juiceeds ratio along with the fact that no one really seems to run kits w/skins through a press ever- just hand squeezing the bag.
Great suggestion on the delestage though. I've never heard it before either and just had to google it. The amount of seeds in an all-grape batch is a whole heck of a lot. But Press delicately and you avoid the harsh seed/stem tannin.
I'm not 100% on this though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Johnd]

How much tannin is actually being extracted from seeds during fermentation though? I thought those harsh seed tannins stay with the seeds unless put through heavy duty pressing.
If so, Delestage sounds like it would benefit an all-grape batch no doubt, but would it make difference in a kit with skins pack? (Seed removal with oxygenation as a byproduct). Im thinking this because of the juiceeds ratio along with the fact that no one really seems to run kits w/skins through a press ever- just hand squeezing the bag.
Great suggestion on the delestage though. I've never heard it before either and just had to google it. The amount of seeds in an all-grape batch is a whole heck of a lot. But Press delicately and you avoid the harsh seed/stem tannin.
I'm not 100% on this though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've always run my kits through a press. I dump all of the ingredients loose into the fermenter and let fermentation roll til about 1.000. I stretch the muslin bag over a second bucket and dump the first into the second. Remove the bag, let it drain a while, and put it into my little fruit press. Works like a charm.

 

[AJP]

There is a great 4+ page discussion of Delestage masceration/fermentation in "Techniques in Home Winemaking" book by Daniel Pambianchi. A lot of the information in this book is well above my head, but it's well written and I'm learning a lot.

For those of you that have done a wine with skins loose (no mesh bag). According to my reading, during fermentation the seeds readily separate from the seeds.
Do the seeds separate easily during primary?
If that is the case, it seems like it would be easy enough to strain the big stuff during a delestage racking and get a bunch of the seeds out.

As far as oxygenating the skins, this is exactly what the delestage is supposed to do. According to the book "...Delestage...is a fermentation/maceration technique used in red winemaking from grapes, which gently extracts phenolic compounds by oxygenating the juice to produce a softer, less astringent wine exhibiting more fruit character. ..."

AJ

 

[Ajmassa]

I've always run my kits through a press. I dump all of the ingredients loose into the fermenter and let fermentation roll til about 1.000. I stretch the muslin bag over a second bucket and dump the first into the second. Remove the bag, let it drain a while, and put it into my little fruit press. Works like a charm.

Of course you do. But just pretend you are joe schmo winemaker who makes a few kits a year. If you're in your wine palace just close your eyes.
If your merely handsqueezing your bag, and not using an actual 'press', aren't you safe from releasing the harsh tannins of seeds? And can simply stir the hell out your primary and punching the cap often for oxygen?
@AJP - I wouldn't say easily. If you racked all the wine off, the seeds are separated technically, but mixed in with all the skins and other gunk. Though a good portion seem to collect and remain in the vessel when scooping out skins with a strainer. (From what I remember. Have helped with grape batches many times, but only have done 1 on my own. And my kits with skins I used a Muslin bag).

 

[AJP]

...
@AJP - I wouldn't say easily. If you racked all the wine off, the seeds are separated technically, but mixed in with all the skins and other gunk. Though a good portion seem to collect and remain in the vessel when scooping out skins with a strainer. (From what I remember. Have helped with grape batches many times, but only have done 1 on my own. And my kits with skins I used a Muslin bag).

AJM,

From my reading, you don't 'rack' to get the seeds out, you drain from a large valve at the bottom of a vessel (slanted bottom to assist in moving the solids/seeds to the valve). I'm thinking a bucket with a valve on/at the bottom and then use the bucket tilted toward the valve. I doubt that normal racking (siphoning) would move the seeds very well.

AJ

 

[Johnd]

If your merely handsqueezing your bag, and not using an actual 'press', aren't you safe from releasing the harsh tannins of seeds? And can simply stir the hell out your primary and punching the cap often for oxygen?

My opinion, when dealing with kits with grape packs, is that I do everything I can to increase the total dissolved solids from the very limited quantity of skins provided. Free-floating all of the grape pack contents, I believe, gives me the best opportunity to do so, as well as maximizing extraction of all the goodies through fermentation. Pressing, IMHO, also maximizes that opportunity. I get a good 1-2 cups from an already squeezed muslin grape bag, really viscous liquid. And yes, you can press too hard, break seeds, and release very bitter tannins, definitely want to avoid that. Squeezing the bag is safe.

Truth be told, I haven't done a kit in a while, the ones I have done have had skins from wines that have already been pressed, as I freeze my pomace cakes for that purpose,