Does wine aquire "structure" with aging

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brushwood24

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I have a couple kits that are in carboys, a shiraz and a cabernet franc that were from concentrate. The Shiraz just finished clearing and the cab. franc has been aging for about a month. I just tasted them to see how they are coming along and they were surprisingly good even though they are really young. They tasted a little "thin" though. Definitely lacking the structure I usually expect from those wines. They both pretty much seemed like they would turn into some pretty easy drinking wines, which is not what I usually think of when I think of those grapes. Is that normal for a wine at this stage or is it a result of being from concentrate or something else entirely?
 
The usual criticism of wine from kits is that they are "thin" in texture, even though the flavor is usually better than expected. I am not sure whether your question is if kit wines can be easy-drinking at an early stage, or something else. I find most of my wines are pretty good after 3-6 months and improve somewhat with age, but, unlike a lot of folks on this forum, I have not noticed dramatic improvements over a 2-3 year period - some gradual improvement, but nothing amazing or incredible.

All that said, there is a solid consensus that the higher priced kits, with lower concentration and more juice, tend to yield better wines after a year and beyond. I find the lower-priced kits compare reasonably well to the higher priced kits at the 3 to 6 month stage; so if you're drinking it as fast as you can make it, there's not much reason to buy the high-priced kits. If you plan on aging it and want something special, then go for the more expensive kits and it will be all that you hope for, if you are PATIENT!
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You fail to let us know what the kits are you have made- so anything from us is conjecture. What brand and series of kit would be very helpin in giving you meaningful advice. Like Bart says, in general the better juice kits give better finished products- especially after a couple years in the bottle. Even the cheaper kits can bebefit from some aging, depending on the kit. I have a Mosti Vinifera Noble Cab Franc/Sauvignon kit that is over two years old now. It was drinkable young, but it has really begun to shine now. It has bountiful cherry flavors and smells and is beginning to give up a fair amount of chocolate now. I gave up waiting for cheap Winexpert kits to come around- they never did although the more expensive ones do improve some.
 
I was mostly asking if I could expect the wines to acquire more structure as they age. I've been doing some google searches and reading what I can about it and it seems like one suggestion is to add tannin but I'm hesitant to ruin my wine by messing around with it too much. It seems like it's developing into something that will be enjoyable, if not exactly what I was expecting.
 
The Cabernet Franc is a RJ Spagnols Grand Cru kit and the Shiraz is a Mosti Mondiale Vinifera Noble kit.
 
If it is developing into something enjoyable, that is what is important. I wouldn't mess around too much. If you wanted to experiment with tannins, buy some and try it on a single bottle or part of a cup. If you liked the results- scale to a full carboy. If you don't like it, well, you saved the full carboys from disaster by not trying it on the whole batch.
 
That article says it all. I have made a few of the lower end red kits and not liked them at all due to thinness, abv not comparable to its varietal, and missing flavor profile. I stepped right up to the grape skin kits by RJS and have never looked back. Ive heard the MM kits do a pretty good job in the mid range but havent tried one as of yet. I know for sure the MM Meg does though!
 
As I have tasted the kit wines that I have made as they have changed over time, I have not noticed changes in the mouthfeel but have most assuredly noticed changes in the tastes of the wine. The WE Australian Chardonnay that I made in that start of 2007 is tasting wonderful right now and keeps getting better. Each other wine has showed a vastly improved taste with more and more time to this point. Although the kit wines have a thinness in the mouth that is more associated with the feeling of drinking skim milk instead of cream (the total dissolved solids bit, in part) and although this hasn't changed with age, the flavor improvement vastly makes up for this.


If you get a chance (and have the equipment for it, namely a small press), try making some wine from real grapes. You can get an appreciation for where the prepared kit juice comes from and then have a side-by-side wine to compare the kits against if you so desired. Making wine from grapes,noticing the differences in both the raw material as well as the finished product, and paying attention tohow kit wines agehave all helped me better appreciate the wines I've made from kits as well as grapes or fruit.


- Jim
 
Jim, just curious as to which kits you have made over the years as far as reds. I too make wine from grapes now and am no pro in this for sure but must say Ive tasted plenty of red wines commercially(most likely not the very high end like you) but cab say that the RJS Winery and EP.s stand up to most $20 commercials.
 
JimCook said:
As I have tasted the kit wines that I have made as they have changed over time, I have not noticed changes in the mouthfeel but have most assuredly noticed changes in the tastes of the wine. The WE Australian Chardonnay that I made in that start of 2007 is tasting wonderful right now and keeps getting better. Each other wine has showed a vastly improved taste with more and more time to this point. Although the kit wines have a thinness in the mouth that is more associated with the feeling of drinking skim milk instead of cream (the total dissolved solids bit, in part) and although this hasn't changed with age, the flavor improvement vastly makes up for this.

The two wines I tried actually tasted pretty good already and I can see how they might be developing into some pretty good tasting wine. One of the things I'm really looking forward to is tasting them over time and seeing how they develop. The mouthfeel is definitely different from what I was expecting but that's not necessarily a bad thing, just different.
 
I have always noticed my reds are thiner than I would like. I typically don't have to many selection of kit brandsfrom my lbs.


So outside the "picking the right kit" When using a kit what is the best think you can do to improve the structure of the kit wine? Use a barrel? Additive? Add some skins from somewhere?
 
Wade,
I have not made any of the RJ Spagnols kits so I can't comment directly there. I have made CellarCraft, WE, and Mosti Mondiale kits for reds (Cab, Zin, Merlot, Syrah, Malbec, et cetera). My wine tasting exposureof commercial wine has run the gamut of cheap to expensive and as you've pointed out on the forum before, there are certainly wines that cost more and don't deliver and wines that cost less that do. In general, for my tastes, I find that I get the most value out of commercial red wines that run roughly in the $25-35/bottle range, depending on the varietal. Any kit that can produce a wine for $5-10/bottle that matches against a $20 bottle is a deal any which way you cut it. For me, the new excitement with kit wines is seeing just how much the flavor develops over time, thanks to forgetting about astoppered but openedbottle on the counter for a week one time.


My post was just addressing the idea of time vs. structure (primarily tannin/solids) in a wine. Since structure generally smoothes out over time and most kits tend to be on the light sidewith oak (perhaps a more French style here?), that's where I was coming from.


Brushwood - I can tell you that I do notice a difference between the kit wines that were oaked with oak chips/cubes compard to a barrel. The concept of 'more rounded tannins' stick out here - structure combined with grace, perhaps.


- Jim
 
I think the barrel "thickens" the feel of the wine...


If it is a new barrel you wont notice the difference, but a wine that sits in there a while seems to change. I'm sure part of it is the age, but also the "angel share" helps also.
 
Jim, Im just picking your mind as I feel you have tried many more commercial wines then me but I can say that the kits I have made after learning that the lower end didnt cut it at all can easily compare with lots of commercial wines available in my neighborhood. I also must state that the best wine Ive tried to date now were a Mosti Meg Barolo and the tops was just the other day at our local contest where a friend of mine made a Petite Verdot that took best red and best of show. I value your wine buds so dont think Im beating you down here.
 
wade said:
Jim, Im just picking your mind as I feel you have tried many more commercial wines then me but I can say that the kits I have made after learning that the lower end didnt cut it at all can easily compare with lots of commercial wines available in my neighborhood. I also must state that the best wine Ive tried to date now were a Mosti Meg Barolo and the tops was just the other day at our local contest where a friend of mine made a Petite Verdot that took best red and best of show. I value your wine buds so dont think Im beating you down here.

How old were those wines? I always thought a Barolo took a minimum of 3 years to really even start being drinkable and I've never seen petit verdot outside of a blend.
 
The Barolo was about 3 years old but The Petite Verdot was I believe about 1 1/2 years old. As all the judges said to my friend a Petite Verdot is very hard to pull off due to its higher tannins and acidity but he nailed this one. Wish I had a cellar full of that. Im saving for a crusher/destemmer myself right now as I already have the press. Waiting in line at the LHBS for my turn with their crusher is painful at best as some of these people are crushing 1000 lbs. I think at that amount Id surely have my own crusher.
 
wade said:
Jim, Im just picking your mind as I feel you have tried many more commercial wines then me but I can say that the kits I have made after learning that the lower end didnt cut it at all can easily compare with lots of commercial wines available in my neighborhood. I also must state that the best wine Ive tried to date now were a Mosti Meg Barolo and the tops was just the other day at our local contest where a friend of mine made a Petite Verdot that took best red and best of show. I value your wine buds so dont think Im beating you down here.










I understand. :) Was the Petit Verdot wine from a kit (wasn't there a limited edition WE kit of that varietal)? I've held your Meglioli Barolo recommendation in my mind since you made it, especially since it was an aged kit - gives me a perspective with my own Meglioli kits for aging.


I have the Brehm's vineyard frozen Sonoma Cabernet Sauvignon grapes that I made wine from and it was such a drastic difference in the raw material compared to Cab kits that I had made that it quite opened my eyes. I recall an Owen Roe Sharecropper's Cabernet Sauvignon for somewhere around $15/bottle, but I haven't tasted any recent vintages. I can't say I've actually had a lot of straight Cab lately - what are some of the commercial Cabs you had tasted in the $15-20/bottle range?


- Jim
 
I actually think Im making a mistake in that it was a Petite Syrah, sorry about that and it was from grapes. As far as the Meg. Barolo goes I didnt make it, I was given a bottle from Masta a few years back and was a good bo and let it age well before snuggling up with it. I have a Brehm wine in my cellar from another of my friends that I am letting age some more but hae tasted one and they are very god but pricey! I dont have any names as none really tickled my fancy enough to stick in my mind and I really dont buy commercial very often due to that fact. Ive just bought too many $20 dollar bottles over the years that I really didnt aapreciate the experience.
 

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