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kuziwk

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Is there anyone that swaps yeast in kits? If so what yeast and is there a marked improvement? Is there any additional nutrient that you need to add?
 

cmason1957

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Is there anyone that swaps yeast in kits? If so what yeast and is there a marked improvement? Is there any additional nutrient that you need to add?
Many people swap out yeasts in wine kits. Do you need to add more nutrients? That depends on the swap you made, if the kit came with Ec1118 and you swap out with RC-212, then probably you should add some more nutrients. Some yeasts need more nutrients than others.

It can make an improvement and it can be worse. The swap needs to be for a yeast that you feel is more appropriate for the base you have.
 

kuziwk

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Many people swap out yeasts in wine kits. Do you need to add more nutrients? That depends on the swap you made, if the kit came with Ec1118 and you swap out with RC-212, then probably you should add some more nutrients. Some yeasts need more nutrients than others.

It can make an improvement and it can be worse. The swap needs to be for a yeast that you feel is more appropriate for the base you have.
Right so it was RC 212 that I innoculated a passport and showcase kit with. They are going pretty strong right now. What nutrient would you add? I was also planning on pitching ec-1118 at around SG 1.040 to ensure it ferments dry and create a bit of complexity. This actually all started with the passport kit which told me to pitch both types of yeast at once...I don't see the benefit of that as the ec-1118 will take over
 

cmason1957

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Right so it was RC 212 that I innoculated a passport and showcase kit with. They are going pretty strong right now. What nutrient would you add? I was also planning on pitching ec-1118 at around SG 1.040 to ensure it ferments dry and create a bit of complexity. This actually all started with the passport kit which told me to pitch both types of yeast at once...I don't see the benefit of that as the ec-1118 will take over
This is a different situation. The kit manufacturer will have ensued that there is the proper amount of nutrient. Ec1118 won't ever create complexity, it will just ensure a full ferment. If it were my wine, I probably wouldn't add it until about 1.010.

Although, with RC-212 I always monitor closely and am ready to add some amount of fermaid nutrition at the first of smell, above about 1.040.
 

kuziwk

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This is a different situation. The kit manufacturer will have ensued that there is the proper amount of nutrient. Ec1118 won't ever create complexity, it will just ensure a full ferment. If it were my wine, I probably wouldn't add it until about 1.010.

Although, with RC-212 I always monitor closely and am ready to add some amount of fermaid nutrition at the first of smell, above about 1.040.

Alright so I added in the RC 212 into the showcase kit that only provided EC-1118 into the kit. I was intending to add the EC-1118 half way in just to mix things up and possibly create some complexity. Do you see any issue with this given there was no additional nutrient added? If so should I go ahead and pitch the EC-1118 now?

The passport kit is the one that actually came with both packets and said to add them both at the same time. This is rediculous as the EC-1118 will kill off everything and take over. I'm going to add the EC-1118 half way through or as you suggested at around 1.010.

How would you know the yeast are labored? H2S Smell?
 

cmason1957

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Alright so I added in the RC 212 into the showcase kit that only provided EC-1118 into the kit. I was intending to add the EC-1118 half way in just to mix things up and possibly create some complexity. Do you see any issue with this given there was no additional nutrient added? If so should I go ahead and pitch the EC-1118 now?

The passport kit is the one that actually came with both packets and said to add them both at the same time. This is rediculous as the EC-1118 will kill off everything and take over. I'm going to add the EC-1118 half way through or as you suggested at around 1.010.

How would you know the yeast are labored? H2S Smell?
Yes smell. I didn't understand that you have two kits. 1) didn't have RC-212 and you decided to use it, watch it closely and at the first sign of off smells, add some nutrients, I can't tell you how much of the top of my head. 2) came with two yeasts and you decided to add just one, that one should be fine, but monitor it as well for off smells. Your assumption that Ec1118 would take over may or may not be right, I defer to the kit manufacturers on that.
 

salcoco

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normal nutrient addition is 1.25 grams per gallon. 1/2 at ferment start, 1/2 at 1/3 ferment complete. I use Fermaid-K or Fermaid-O the "o" is organic. I add mine all at the beginning.
 

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Alright so I added in the RC 212 into the showcase kit that only provided EC-1118 into the kit. I was intending to add the EC-1118 half way in just to mix things up and possibly create some complexity. Do you see any issue with this given there was no additional nutrient added? If so should I go ahead and pitch the EC-1118 now?

The passport kit is the one that actually came with both packets and said to add them both at the same time. This is rediculous as the EC-1118 will kill off everything and take over. I'm going to add the EC-1118 half way through or as you suggested at around 1.010.

How would you know the yeast are labored? H2S Smell?
You keep saying EC 1118 will "kill" other yeasts. I don't believe any yeast kills any other yeast. It MIGHT out-compete another yeast pitched at the same time, but the manufacturer of the kit has done many, many trials and decided on including both yeasts and adding them at the same time. They don't do that for no reason. With co-pitched yeasts, you will generally get character from both. It takes time for one yeast to overtake another and become dominant.

That being said, I think it's fine to have pitched the RC 212 first and add the EC 1118 later. You might get more of the character RC 212 brings that way. But to believe that EC 1118 will "kill everything" and you therefore shouldn't use it as the manufacturer directed is not correct in my opinion.
 
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kuziwk

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You keep saying EC 1118 will "kill" other yeasts. I don't believe any yeast kills any other yeast. It MIGHT out-compete another yeast pitch at the same time, but the manufacturer of the kit has done many, many trials and decided on including both yeasts and adding them at the same time. They don't do that for no reason. With co-pitched yeasts, you will generally get character from both. It takes time for one yeast to overtake another and become dominant.

That being said, I think it's fine to have pitched the RC 212 first and add the EC 1118 later. You might get more of the character RC 212 brings that way. But to believe that EC 1118 will "kill everything" and you therefore shouldn't use it as the manufacturer directed is not correct in my opinion.
So I wonder if it's of benefit to add both to any kit...I ended up adding both to a showcase carmenere...hoping it doesn't mess with anything.
 

NorCal

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With kits, the manufacturer wants to assure complete fermentation, so you buy another kit. The 1118 is just an added layer of reassurance, but I don’t see it as necessary. All the yeasts provided should be able to ferment dry on their own.
 

ras2018

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I believe the kit manufacturers add the EC1118 into the box and have you add it as an insurance policy. EC1118 is a workhorse and will pretty much ferment anything. Basically reducing the chance of user error and ensuring even novice winemakers get a fully fermented wine. I don’t think it will have that much effect on your wine, if anything it might reduce any complexities you might get from just using the RC212.
 

sour_grapes

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You keep saying EC 1118 will "kill" other yeasts. I don't believe any yeast kills any other yeast. It MIGHT out-compete another yeast pitched at the same time, but the manufacturer of the kit has done many, many trials and decided on including both yeasts and adding them at the same time. They don't do that for no reason. With co-pitched yeasts, you will generally get character from both. It takes time for one yeast to overtake another and become dominant.

That being said, I think it's fine to have pitched the RC 212 first and add the EC 1118 later. You might get more of the character RC 212 brings that way. But to believe that EC 1118 will "kill everything" and you therefore shouldn't use it as the manufacturer directed is not correct in my opinion.
Some strains of yeast do, in fact, kill other strains. There are three broad classes. Some strains have a "killer factor" (where they excrete a toxic protein). Some strains are immune to this protein, and some are sensitive to it. As it happens, EC-1118 is a killer yeast, and RC-212 is sensitive to it.
 

kuziwk

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Some strains of yeast do, in fact, kill other strains. There are three broad classes. Some strains have a "killer factor" (where they excrete a toxic protein). Some strains are immune to this protein, and some are sensitive to it. As it happens, EC-1118 is a killer yeast, and RC-212 is sensitive to it.
This is what I read which is what caused me to believe the ec-1118 will take over the rc-212...just not sure how long that would take to happen. The whole thing might even be a moot point anyways as I've also heard that for aged red wine any apparent difference with yeasts age out over time anyways.
 

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Some strains of yeast do, in fact, kill other strains. There are three broad classes. Some strains have a "killer factor" (where they excrete a toxic protein). Some strains are immune to this protein, and some are sensitive to it. As it happens, EC-1118 is a killer yeast, and RC-212 is sensitive to it.
Very interesting! This hobby is all about learning new stuff. Thanks for sharing that info.
 

kuziwk

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Well either way I pitched both types of yeast now...I will experiment with rc212 to collect my own findings...it just won't be on a limited edition kit.
 

BernardSmith

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Does the kit suggest that you add RC212 before you add EC1118 and add the latter a few days or a week after the RC212? That would certainly allow RC212 to begin to produce flavors nd aromas even if the EC1118 destroyed the source of those flavors so you would get the benefit of both yeasts, although I am not sure I know what benefit there is that comes from using EC1118, unless you are a true novice wine maker
 

rustbucket

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Bernard, I made the Nocturnal wine kit, a Chateauneuf-du-Pape style of wine, in 2017. It came with Lalvin EC1118 and BM4X4. The instructions indicated that both should be added at the same time. I'm not sure which yeast strain won the survival race but the wine turned out OK.

Should I make a kit that includes two types of yeast again, I think that I'll follow mason1957's advice and add the varietal complementing strain first and then the more aggressive strain later in the process to assure a complete fermentation.
 

pillswoj

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In cases where a Kit comes with 2 yeasts, I only add the "premium" yeast be it 212 or BM 4x4. I have never had the wine not ferment to dry.
Where kits are concerned I believe that the manufacturer is more interested in making sure it is foolproof and quick then they are in you making the best wine you can. In making kits the best they can be you need experience and to throw out the included instructions which are designed to make it quick for brew your own shops.
 

sour_grapes

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Bernard, I made the Nocturnal wine kit, a Chateauneuf-du-Pape style of wine, in 2017. It came with Lalvin EC1118 and BM4X4. The instructions indicated that both should be added at the same time. I'm not sure which yeast strain won the survival race but the wine turned out OK.

Should I make a kit that includes two types of yeast again, I think that I'll follow mason1957's advice and add the varietal complementing strain first and then the more aggressive strain later in the process to assure a complete fermentation.

I don't disagree with your reasoning. However, I want to point out that you added three strains of yeast. BM4x4 is actually a proprietary concoction of (at least) two strains. One of them is probably BM45.
 

mainshipfred

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The whole thing might even be a moot point anyways as I've also heard that for aged red wine any apparent difference with yeasts age out over time anyways.[/QUOTE]

I've heard the same thing and the reasoning behind it is over my head. But I can't help to think the different chemical characteristics a yeast contributes or inhibits has to have a lasting effect on the wine.
 
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