Do I have to top off on secondary? (below the shoulders)

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Kyle

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Hi all, first post. I am going to tell the whole story, as suggested!

I am making a Cellar Craft Red Mountain Cabernet. It's a 6 week, crushed grape pack kit. I started it on 2 Feb, followed directions carefully, but opted to not put the crushed grapes into the bag, but let them float around in the primary. There was 24.5L of juice.

Primary fermentation went great, stirred daily, kept a loose lid on, in a bathroom I have regulated to 70-72 degrees (initial SG 1.102 @ 78 degrees, that is corrected it for temp as hydrometer instructions said). Here is where it gets screwy. I had that glass hydrometer that broke on day 2. Someone gave me a refractometer type hydrometer which I started using on day 4, SG 1.083. I used it every day and was frustrated when on day 8 the SG was1.038, Day 9 SG was 1.033. By day 8 the bubbles were very light when I would stir the grape skins down (per kit instructions). During this time I had ordered another glass hydrometer, and on Day 10 I checked calibration (floated it in exactly 60 degree water, and it was precisely on). Checked the wine with the refractometer (SG 1.033) and then with the glass hydrometer (SG 0.998 !!). With the lack of active bubbling I had to assume the glass hydrometer is correct.

So I racked the wine to a glass carboy, adding the enzyme as directed, and all was fine until the bottom of the primary was reached. There was a fabulous amount of sediment at the bottom, and with my 6+ gallon Chinese carboy, when I ran out of liquid to siphon, the wine did not reach the shoulders. It is currently at the 22L mark (I marked by the liter and gallon prior to this) which is right where the shoulders start. This leaves a fair amount of headspace and I am worried about the oxidation. Kit says I can top with wine or water (during this stage) to leave 3 inches of headroom - it says it must only have 3 inches. Now I have looked around and some people say to leave it, as it is still producing CO2, some say to use marbles(or similar) some say to put a layer of CO2 on it, some say to use wine, some to use water. I do not want to top up with water or wine.

If the SG is 0.998, has all fermentation stopped? If yes, then is it really protected? If not, can i just lay the CO2 gas on it? Based on looking on this forum, I understand if I had racked it at a slightly higher SG it would be fine with this headspace because it would be fermenting fairly actively. It is currently bubbling intermittently on the ferm lock, and there is a fine layer of bubbles developing (it's been in the secondary carboy for about 12 hours) but nothing vigorous.

What I would like to do is get a 5 gallon carboy for the bulk aging (because I sucked up plenty of the goopy sediment and know it's in the carboy, so I will have even less when I rack it again) so I don't have to add anything for that process. Am I safe in letting it go in the secondary at the current headspace for the 10 days it calls for before the next racking?

Thank you - first kit is nerve wracking!

Kyle
 
Yes, fermentation is almost done.

Alcohol in the juice will affect the refractometer reading. You can't use this once fermentation has started.

I would suggest that you rack and top up.

No worries, it should be fine.
 
Would bet that fermentation is still going on, albeit a bit slower, since airlock is still showing signs of releasing CO2 (no need to add CO2). The volume of the contents is not going to increase so topping up to within a couple of inches of the airlock would be ok. Personally I prefer using a like wine vs. water or marbles,,, easier and will not affect the product. Go for 10-14 days and rack over again. Don't forget to include K-Meta in these steps. 3-4 days of same SG would indicate fermentation done. The only thing not supplied in any kit is patience!! LOL
 
Welcome to WMT!

If you are planning to degass in a few days, I would wait to top off. That degassing will release lots of co2 that can become a geyser. Extra headspace makes it easier if you are using a stir rod type degasser. Or you can put it back into your primary bucket to degass and avoid geysers. Once degassed, I would top off with similar wine, add lead-free marbles, or rack to smaller carboy. Personally, I always top off with a similar wine as I do not yet have a variety of carboy sizes.
 
Degassing can be messy, wait until after that to top off. Dont worry, topping off wont taint your product. Its a normal and necessary part of home wine making.

Make yourself a batch of Welches wine for future topping off.

I used water the first couple of wines, but now only use wine.
 
Thanks - I know I am fretting.
So if I top off, do it with wine and the product will be fine - but most say wait until after the degassing ( I expect I will be using manual method - maybe with a drill).

When they say top off with 'like wine' they mean Cabernet for Cabernet, correct?

If the SG is already 0.998, should I be moving directly to the degassing? My kit says it will be 8-10 days in this secondary ferm, but that would be assuming I racked it at 1.000 instead of 0.988, correct? Is it normal to have a very short secondary ferm timeline?
And correct me if I am wrong - but once the SG is 0.998 or lower it is ready to degas....right?

Thank you!
 
Unless the wine is sitting on more than an inch of funk, longer times will only help.

Time is your best ally with wine.
 
If the sludge from primary fermentation is the funk - I am afraid it is on several inches of funk. There was alot of sludge and I siphoned more of it off than I wanted to, trying to get the carboy full!
 
Just keep racking and topping off until you dot have anymore sediment on the bottom. You can wait until you have 1/2 inch of sediment a few times then you will get less as less with each racking.

Has anyone tried to put in one of those long balloons and blowing it up inside the carboy until it takes up the air space? And then tying it off? Could it release toxins into the wine even if it has been soaked in cleaner and then sanitized? I'll have to look into this. Another thing that could work is. I read about making rigid tube just a bit narrower to fit through the carboy neck and tiny holes drilled in it to put oak chips so you don't have to worry about the cleanup mess afterwards. Wouldn't a solid tube work to displace the airspace? It would have to be long enough to get out easily after racking.
 
When I made my Old Vine Zin kit and had the headspace issue you speak of, I used a store bought Old Vine Zin to top up with. I didn't want to dilute the ABV or flavor with water.
 
When they say top off with 'like wine' they mean Cabernet for Cabernet, correct?

Yeah, that is fine, but it probably can be relaxed to "dry red for dry red." For example, if you top off your Cab with a Merlot, a Malbec, or even a Syrah or a Zin, you will never know the difference.

You know, single-varietal wines aren't inherently better than blends anyway! I think that, in general, blending wines will improve, not "adulterate" wine.

If the SG is already 0.998, should I be moving directly to the degassing? My kit says it will be 8-10 days in this secondary ferm, but that would be assuming I racked it at 1.000 instead of 0.988, correct? Is it normal to have a very short secondary ferm timeline?
And correct me if I am wrong - but once the SG is 0.998 or lower it is ready to degas....right?

Standard advice is to wait until the SG is the same 3 days in a row. I would follow that advice.
 
What an excellent thread. I feel your pain OP. When I started I was in your shoes with a similar Cellar Craft Cabernet kit but listened to the folks on the forum and it has turned out fabulous. I have topped off with similar wines as well as dry red wine for another wine just like sour grapes said and I truly can not tell a difference ( I like to think I am a pretty good taster as well ). I have also racked down to a 5 gallon carboy ( I do this more commonly) and it is darn near impossible for me to taste a difference. I am sure yours wine will turn out great. Good luck.

BTW, if you want to increase your stress level but also increase your end product start aging your wine in a barrel. It has been the best step in my wine making I have made but brings in all types of worry over SO2 and barrel care.
 
I am not sure I could take an increase to my stress level. ;) Not sure why I get so wound up about the particulars on this wine making, but I sure do!
So I will check it again tomorrow and will likely proceed to the next step this weekend. I checked the SG tonight and it is a solid 0.992 with no bubbles. I put the ferm lock back on and shook it a around to release the CO2 to help protect the top layer. It foamed nicely and the ferm lock bubbled vigorously. I think for now I will count on that to protect it, degassing after the 3rd good SG reading, and plan on racking it down to a 5 gal carboy (which I got today at a local place, Bacchus and Barleycorn) for the final clearing process. I also got a Gewurtztraminer today with the carboy, so on to the next adventure soon.
Thanks for all the swift replies to help me out!





Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making
 
Oh forgot to ask have you tried using the inert gas canisters they sell ? I use it with great success and it calms my nerves a bit worrying about topping off and fiddling too much with my wine ( which I used to do quite a bit ). One of the best pieces of advice I have gotten from some the folks on here is to leave my wine alone and let it do what it does.
 
As LeChat briefly mentioned, the refractometer is only accurate before fermentation to alcohol has begun. BUT, you can apply correction factors to the reading afterwards to still be able to use it. As long as you know your starting Brix this calculator will work:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/refractometer-calculator/

A reading of 1.033 would be nearly dry, I think.

Your idea of getting a smaller carboy to rack into is sound. That's my preferred method - rack into a smaller container that has little headspace. Any overflow I sample or put into smaller bottles for topping up later.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck. Although we talk a lot about the problems with wine, it is actually very forgiving. And I'm sure you'll have a perfectly drinkable product in the end.
 
Just keep racking and topping off until you dot have anymore sediment on the bottom. You can wait until you have 1/2 inch of sediment a few times then you will get less as less with each racking.

Has anyone tried to put in one of those long balloons and blowing it up inside the carboy until it takes up the air space? And then tying it off? Could it release toxins into the wine even if it has been soaked in cleaner and then sanitized? I'll have to look into this. Another thing that could work is. I read about making rigid tube just a bit narrower to fit through the carboy neck and tiny holes drilled in it to put oak chips so you don't have to worry about the cleanup mess afterwards. Wouldn't a solid tube work to displace the airspace? It would have to be long enough to get out easily after racking.

Carolyn
I came up with a very similar idea a couple years back -
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/new-product-removal-excessive-head-space-17891/

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/
 
Thanks Steve! Well I have only been making wines from scratch until recently and this problem must occur all the time with kits. I see that most people want top up with a similar wine but I also feel that having that other option is also handy. If not a bladder or balloon what about a solid rigid tube that comes in different sizes to displace the wine to the correct level for each size carboy? Even just putting in something thin like a stirring spoon displaces wine. But I guess the idea is not as flexible as using a bladder or balloon. What about a balloon or food grade plastic bag with some marbles in it first to make it sink after being filled with air. Seal and let sink to bottom of carboy. Pop bag after racking.
 
GreginND - I should have done more research on that refractometer. Thanks for the link.

nucjd - I will try that with the gas canisters (just looked it up) seems like a great idea. And yes, i need to stop fiddling with the wine too much. As far as the barrel, some day I will get there :)

My idea with getting the smaller carboy was if I was going to spend $ on either wine or a 5 gal carboy, at this point (with only one other glass carboy) it made sense to get another carboy. Call it an investment. But everyone says topping off with a similar wine does not change the flavor, which has relaxed my worry about it.

Caryolyn, there was a post on here somewhere were one person uses pvc tubes filled with sand (capped of course). Personnally i would worry about any flavors that may be imparted, unless of course you had the food grade materials you mentioned.
 

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