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Do Cleaners/Sanitizers Create Off Flavors?

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Ambugaton

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I have been using one step for a cleaner for a while now and I notice it creates a white film when it dries. Also, I keep reading that other people will still rinse regardless if the cleaner is no rinse... so I will begin rinsing after cleaning, but I have a couple batches now that I did not rinse. Has anyone noticed any affect on flavor by not rinsing these cleaners?

I also bought a Costco size oxiclean ($12 for about 12lbs) vs. the one step ($30 for 5lbs price locally) which is MUCH cheaper. Do I use it the same way?

Similar question about using K-Meta to sanitize. I am afraid I overuse the stuff. I use a spray bottle and pretty much cover the surface of each tool/container I use and typically just shake it dry. I do not usually let it sit and dry completely before use. Would this create any off flavors? Being that I use 3 tbs per gallon of water I hope I am not introducing too much sulfite.

Thanks and I will be looking through other posts to figure this out as well.
 
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Johnd

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I can't comment on the sanitizers in the beginning of your question, as I don't use any of them. I clean all of my equipment with B-Brite and wash it all away after cleaning. For sanitizing, I use sulfite at the rate of 3TBS/gallon, along with a little citric acid to increase the effectiveness.

There is no harm in a few drops of sulfite solution being left behind, shaking it off is plenty good enough. There are 90,921.8 drops in a gallon, a few left behind just isn't going to make any kind of measurable change in sulfite.
 

wineforfun

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I have been using one step for a cleaner for a while now and I notice it creates a white film when it dries. Also, I keep reading that other people will still rinse regardless if the cleaner is no rinse... so I will begin rinsing after cleaning, but I have a couple batches now that I did not rinse. Has anyone noticed any affect on flavor by not rinsing these cleaners?

I also bought a Costco size oxiclean ($12 for about 12lbs) vs. the one step ($30 for 5lbs price locally) which is MUCH cheaper. Do I use it the same way?

Similar question about using K-Meta to sanitize. I am afraid I overuse the stuff. I use a spray bottle and pretty much cover the surface of each tool/container I use and typically just shake it dry. I do not usually let it sit and dry completely before use. Would this create any off flavors? Being that I use 3 tbs per gallon of water I hope I am not introducing too much sulfite.

Thanks and I will be looking through other posts to figure this out as well.
I use One Step and B-Brite both, depending on what my LHBS has on hand. With either one, or any cleaner for that matter, I always rinse after using/cleaning. I don't want anything drying on my carboys like that.
 

dralarms

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I don't rinse my bottles after cleaning, my carboys are cleaned with one step and then about 1 inch of kmeta placed in the bottoms and a solid cork, I just dump and go when I need one.
 

CryptoStorm

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I use 1 step to clean things.

I use Star San, but I rinse even though it says you don't need to. Foam just isn't right in my eyes..

I have also did the sulfite method similar to what JohnD suggests.. I will probably switch to doing only that once I run out of Star San.
 

Redbird1

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I use StarSan and never rinse anything. As brewers like to say, "Don't fear the foam!" Although it is highly unlikely that rinsing with tap water would cause any issues, why risk it? Has anyone ever heard of a wine that contained off flavors caused by sanitizers when they were used as directed?

People a lot smarter than me put a lot of time into making these products so they are effective without causing any issues, and they have a long track record of performing. I can't understand why anyone (other than someone with a chemistry background) would decide they know better than the makers of the product.
 

Ajmassa

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I can't comment on the sanitizers in the beginning of your question, as I don't use any of them. I clean all of my equipment with B-Brite and wash it all away after cleaning. For sanitizing, I use sulfite at the rate of 3TBS/gallon, along with a little citric acid to increase the effectiveness.



There is no harm in a few drops of sulfite solution being left behind, shaking it off is plenty good enough. There are 90,921.8 drops in a gallon, a few left behind just isn't going to make any kind of measurable change in sulfite.

I use k-meta 90% of the time. But use 4 tbs per gallon. Every bag says 2 oz right? And 2 tbs per ounce?
Also, citrus added? How much?
 

Smok1

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I use b-brite for all my equipment, spray it down, let sit for a while and then rinse. For bottles i use b-brite solution in a vinator to clean, let sit, rinse with water, then i use a k-meta/citric acid solution in a vinator, spray and let dry on wine tree, the kmeta definitly does have a smell once dryed in the bottles but i havent noticed any off tastes in my wines yet.

Id have to look in my journal but i think i add 1/2tsp kmeta and 1/4tsp citric acid per liter. If i remember correctly
 
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Johnd

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I use k-meta 90% of the time. But use 4 tbs per gallon. Every bag says 2 oz right? And 2 tbs per ounce?
Also, citrus added? How much?
I do not know the conversion between TBS and ounces for kmeta offhand, but as mentioned, I use 3 TBS per gallon. I'm sure that using 4 TBS / gallon is just fine as well.
My tap water (used to make the sanitizing solution) is a bit on the alkaline side, so I add 1 TBS of citric acid to lower the pH of the water, which increases the effectiveness of the kmeta.
 

Ajmassa

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I do not know the conversion between TBS and ounces for kmeta offhand, but as mentioned, I use 3 TBS per gallon. I'm sure that using 4 TBS / gallon is just fine as well.

My tap water (used to make the sanitizing solution) is a bit on the alkaline side, so I add 1 TBS of citric acid to lower the pH of the water, which increases the effectiveness of the kmeta.

You must love your meter. Your like Mr pH! I used to use starSan and checked that pH. I was told if it goes above 3.2 I think, that its not effective anymore. But never thought to check the k-meta.
I used my nose. If the smell still punches me in the face when I take the cap off the jug, then it's still good. I typically use a batch from start till it goes into bulk. And then will make more. I think I'll start adding some citrus now.
 

CryptoStorm

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People a lot smarter than me put a lot of time into making these products so they are effective without causing any issues, and they have a long track record of performing. I can't understand why anyone (other than someone with a chemistry background) would decide they know better than the makers of the product.
Monsanto employs a lot of people who are WAY smarter than me.. That doesn't mean their products will have zero ill effects.

Your doctor is a lot smarter than you; you still ask him questions and help develop a plan that is right for you..
 

Johnd

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You must love your meter. Your like Mr pH! I used to use starSan and checked that pH. I was told if it goes above 3.2 I think, that its not effective anymore. But never thought to check the k-meta.
I used my nose. If the smell still punches me in the face when I take the cap off the jug, then it's still good. I typically use a batch from start till it goes into bulk. And then will make more. I think I'll start adding some citrus now.
LOL! I guess I do harp on pH a fair amount, but only because it's such an important part of all that we are trying to accomplish as winemakers. It affects the performance of our sanitizers, affects the performance of our yeasts, affects the performance of our MLB, affects the stability, aging capacity and taste of the wines we create.

pH meters are super easy to calibrate and use, and when you get it right from start to finish, you eliminate that variable in your activities, increasing your odds of yielding clean wine, good AF and MLF with no off odors or tastes, and wine that tastes and ages well. Obviously, there is so much more for us to do and learn during the production of a single wine, but at least the pH is one aspect that we can easily get right with minimal effort. Just my opinion........
 

Ajmassa

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pH meters are super easy to calibrate .......but at least the pH is one aspect that we can easily get right with minimal effort. Just my opinion........

Id also add "and a whole lot of knowledge" to that. But I'm figuring it out and learning as I go. I'll be picking your brain in a week or so about raising pH. I'm At 3.1 and 3.2 if it doesn't raise after MLF, which I hope it does. But that's another topic for another time.
 

Ajmassa

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Also, the whole reason I stopped using StarSan was because of the smell. And the foam got to be a pain to wait for to subside. The smell just isn't pleasant to me. Never thought it would taint the wine, but regardless I thought it was kinda nasty.
The Kmeta chemical smell lets me know it's strong and working. More Peace of mind I guess.
 

Redbird1

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Monsanto employs a lot of people who are WAY smarter than me.. That doesn't mean their products will have zero ill effects.

Your doctor is a lot smarter than you; you still ask him questions and help develop a plan that is right for you..
I am talking about no-rinse sanitizers specifically. I could not find such a product that is produced by Monsanto.

I can't find any evidence at all that the products in question cause off flavors if used as recommended. Do you have any examples, either personally or anecdotally, of this happening? Any literature that shows that any of the compounds in the products, or any of the potential by-products, cause issues or even the potential for issues?

People ask their doctors questions because they don't know the answers. The medical field is vast, with numerous potential treatment options, depending on the ailment. In this case however, the science behind no-rinse sanitizers is not in question. Foam or the film left behind, regardless of whether someone thinks they are icky or not, do not have negative consequences impacting taste. It makes my equipment a little slippery, but that's about it. As such, there is no need to develop a plan for no-rinse sanitizers. One could, I guess, but any alternative lessens the effectiveness of the product with no benefit. If viewed objectively, there is only risk introduced by rinsing, with no reward.

Again, I doubt rinsing would ever cause an issue, but I fail to see the point. Why purposefully reduce the effectiveness of a vital component of the process? Can people explain why they do it?
 

Redbird1

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Also, the whole reason I stopped using StarSan was because of the smell. And the foam got to be a pain to wait for to subside. The smell just isn't pleasant to me. Never thought it would taint the wine, but regardless I thought it was kinda nasty.
The Kmeta chemical smell lets me know it's strong and working. More Peace of mind I guess.
The science behind StarSan gives me piece of mind, but I understand how the smell might be offputting to some. I don't mind it, but when I first used it, I thought the color was odd. Yellow in the bottle, but a slight blue/green shade in the water.

Also, if you do ever use it again, there is no need to wait for the foam to subside.
 

pete1325

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I use K-meta to san my bottles before filling.... but never rinse with water afterwards. I just keep pouring the K-meta from one bottle to the next.....shake, pour, fill.
 

stickman

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Looking back at the original post, the question was about cleaners such as one step and oxyclean as well as kmeta solution. In general, Kmeta does not need to be rinsed. The other cleaners mentioned are alkaline and release hydrogen peroxide and would be best rinsed unless they are allowed to dry completely. I personally don't like to allow solutions to dry on my carboys and equipment, so I don't use those things for sanitizing, I use them for cleaning only. If you leave equipment wet with a product that contains or releases Hydrogen peroxide, for example a carboy, the wine you put into that container will lose part of its free sulfite due to the reaction of peroxide with sulfite.
 
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