Curious observation about mouth feel

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BigDaveK

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I've noticed something perplexing about my flower and "tea" wines. In each category the recipes are virtually identical and the resultant wines are within .5% ABV and SG of .002 of each other. And yet there is a noticeable almost stark difference in mouth feel. In this case I'm defining "mouth feel" in it's simplest uncomplicated form - thin vs thick. There seems to be something else in play.
Pigments? Duration of fermentation? Fermentation temperature? Unknown chemical compounds? I'm really curious.
I prefer the slightly "thicker" mouth feel and would like to reliably reproduce the sensation.
Any thoughts?
 

Rice_Guy

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Thick feel on any wine; pick up some gum arabic and does the wine at from one gram per five gallon to one per gallon (thick). Gum arabic is a normal treatment to reduce astringent mouth feel in tannic red wines.
It is interesting that you start the post about flour wine and tea wine. The teas that come to mind have a low viscosity. Many flowers are also thin but there are some as dinner plate hibiscus that have a mucilage (like okra pods). ie put a natural gum in the recipe,,,

Thick versus Thin is also called viscosity. On wine I might also use zanthan gum since it will not turn solid (thixotropic) when one stops mixing, zanthan texture is described as long .,,, On a refrigerated gravy a tapioca flour or waxy corn starch or waxy rice flour works. ,,, A third way to approach wine is what percentage dry solids are in the beverage? The measured viscosity is a linear function versus the log of the dry solids. WeTransformFood is a good source for eight oz packages of thickening agents and they have good demonstrations of the type of viscosity the ingredient can build.
 

winemanden

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What Flower and Tea wines? If they are the same -fresh elderflower and dried elderflower etc. they usually produce similar but different results. Using fresh, you may be extracting essential oils and extracts which may go missing, or possibly be enhanced when the flowers are dried.
In cooking, fresh herbs are not as powerful as dried herbs. If you used the same amounts, weight for weight, you probably wouldn't eat the one made with dried herbs.
If you want a"thicker" wine, do as Rice_Guy says or add Glycerine, but that will make your wine slightly sweeter.
Not really an answer, just thinking aloud.

By the way, recipes are only a guide, feel free to adjust them to your taste and style.

PS. I'm an Englishman. Tea is Tea! Anything else, even if it's in a "teabag" is an infusion.:h🤣
 

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What Flower and Tea wines? If they are the same -fresh elderflower and dried elderflower etc. they usually produce similar but different results. Using fresh, you may be extracting essential oils and extracts which may go missing, or possibly be enhanced when the flowers are dried.
In cooking, fresh herbs are not as powerful as dried herbs. If you used the same amounts, weight for weight, you probably wouldn't eat the one made with dried herbs.
If you want a"thicker" wine, do as Rice_Guy says or add Glycerine, but that will make your wine slightly sweeter.
Not really an answer, just thinking aloud.

By the way, recipes are only a guide, feel free to adjust them to your taste and style.

PS. I'm an Englishman. Tea is Tea! Anything else, even if it's in a "teabag" is an infusion.:h🤣
EASY, I'M A SOUTHRENER, anything besides ice cold sweet tea,, hehe, ain't good,,, lol
Dawg
 

Raptor99

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I use food grade vegetable glycerin to increase the body of my "thin" wines. It also adds a touch of non-fermentable sweetness. Usually I need to backsweeten fruit wines anyway, so that is a good thing. I add the glycerin first, then decide how much additional sweetness it needs.

Whatever you use, I suggest you bench test with a small sample to get the amount right.
 

BigDaveK

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Thick feel on any wine; pick up some gum arabic and does the wine at from one gram per five gallon to one per gallon (thick). Gum arabic is a normal treatment to reduce astringent mouth feel in tannic red wines.
It is interesting that you start the post about flour wine and tea wine. The teas that come to mind have a low viscosity. Many flowers are also thin but there are some as dinner plate hibiscus that have a mucilage (like okra pods). ie put a natural gum in the recipe,,,

Thick versus Thin is also called viscosity. On wine I might also use zanthan gum since it will not turn solid (thixotropic) when one stops mixing, zanthan texture is described as long .,,, On a refrigerated gravy a tapioca flour or waxy corn starch or waxy rice flour works. ,,, A third way to approach wine is what percentage dry solids are in the beverage? The measured viscosity is a linear function versus the log of the dry solids. WeTransformFood is a good source for eight oz packages of thickening agents and they have good demonstrations of the type of viscosity the ingredient can build.
Yes, viscosity, exactly. My vocabulary gets gooder as the day goes on.:D

I was primarily interested in what may naturally have contributed to increased viscosity. At this point in my wine making I'm not really interested in finished wine additions. Maybe someday.

You bring up some good points and I'll have to reexamine my notes. With the flowers, fresh Rose of Sharon has a slight mucilaginous quality. In fact the unopened flowers are slimier than okra. The others, some are thin petaled and delicate and others are "beefy". There may be something in the beefy ones.
With the teas, some fresh leaves, some dried. Who knows what's lost with drying. And my sassafras wine has incredibly wonderful viscosity. The leaves are used to make filet powder to thicken Cajun dishes and now I'm wondering if some of that compound is also present in the roots. Hmm...

Thanks, Rice_Guy, you got me thinking. And I wonder if some filet powder will accidentally be added as a test? :rolleyes:
 

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BigDaveK

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I add some bananas to my peach wine to increase body (viscosity).

Wine yeast naturally produces a small amount of glycerol (glycerin). Some yeasts produce more than others. https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-co...-Expert-120321-WE-Glycerol-and-WInemaking.pdf One of my favorites, 71B, is a high glycerol producer.

So if I add some more glycerin in finishing, I am not adding anything unnatural.
This is why I love this forum. You and Rice_Guy gave me some things to explore and think about. I didn't connect glycerol and yeast. Thanks for that link!!!!
I use 71B quite a bit. Though with my Day Lily wine I had 2 batches, one with 71B and one with 1118 and the flavor with 1118 is SO much better. I'll probably use it more with next year's flowers.
 

vinny

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This is why I love this forum. You and Rice_Guy gave me some things to explore and think about. I didn't connect glycerol and yeast. Thanks for that link!!!!
I use 71B quite a bit. Though with my Day Lily wine I had 2 batches, one with 71B and one with 1118 and the flavor with 1118 is SO much better. I'll probably use it more with next year's flowers.
Hmmm.. Being the guy playing with a dozen yeasts right now, many of which are amongst those listed, I would be very interested to get a bit more info on a few wines as a comparison.

For example A vs B, thick/thin, the yeast used, etc. I don't have the same variety to see the results so dramatically. I will get some variations in my country wines, but I'm a long while away from those maturing. All the originals were V1116 and 1118, medium to high production, and I won't see huge differences with kits as they would already be tweaked for balance, body, etc.
 

BigDaveK

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Hmmm.. Being the guy playing with a dozen yeasts right now, many of which are amongst those listed, I would be very interested to get a bit more info on a few wines as a comparison.

For example A vs B, thick/thin, the yeast used, etc. I don't have the same variety to see the results so dramatically. I will get some variations in my country wines, but I'm a long while away from those maturing. All the originals were V1116 and 1118, medium to high production, and I won't see huge differences with kits as they would already be tweaked for balance, body, etc.
I'm wondering just how deep is this rabbit hole?
My Day Lily with 71B is ok but with great mouth feel. The Day Lily with 1118 is more delicate but the flavor is noticeably superior and given a choice I would go with flavor. Do I remake all my 71B wines with 1118 or another yeast? Or, A vs B and possibly blend? A vs B vs C where C has a yeast combo? Take the easy way and simply add glycerine? Yes, I've done the raisin and/or banana additions and it's a bit frustrating that so many of my wines are still in bulk.
BTW, vinny, I'll be posting an "A vs B" very soon.
 

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vinny

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My Day Lily with 71B is ok but with great mouth feel. The Day Lily with 1118 is more delicate but the flavor is noticeably superior and given a choice I would go with flavor.
This is very interesting. I just put 1118 in the beginners category, and was going to give it a back shelf status. Due to the fact that it is in most kits for it's aggressive/reliable ferments ( meaning it is a kit fail safe), and many comments on this board about people moving past it, suggesting that most start there, but it leaves room to grow understanding and skill. Also the lack of depth it can give, where other yeasts will develop more character specific to the varietal, 1118 is said to not have those character/nuance building attributes.

Then you read an article on glycerol, something I have not yet considered in wine making, and learn that 1118 is a high producer. Yet, the whole reason for your post is that it produced a wine lacking body in comparison to a yeast with not much higher production characteristics.

Sometimes this hobby can be a bit of a mind #^@% and I am just left staring at the ceiling fan in contemplation. ( NO, I wasn't just doing it as I was trying to express my thoughts!) :rolleyes:

Reading the earlier posts my initial thought was these guys are missing the point. I don't want to add glycerin, I want to learn how to make wine without needing a 'cheat' to get what I am aiming for. That is what Dave is trying to understand. I am not holding firm to that thought after more understanding of the make up of wine and it's natural production in fermentation, but I still NEED to do the experiments before just adjusting at the end.. Having already read of people making wine A with one yeast, and wine B with another to blend for different characteristics, this would be my first area of exploration.

Thinking about it, you have already done it, just not with the intention of blending. I would be very interested to see how a blend of the 2 above wines would compare to them individually. I just tried it with 2 wines with different acidity levels. One I thought was a bit high and the other slightly lacking. Together they made a mess of the subtleties of both and the test gave me abetter appreciation of them both, so I didn't blend, but I am glad I tried.
 

BigDaveK

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Bananas do help give body! They also seem to help clear your wine.
I've added bananas for body, and it works, but I now have to be very selective. I put ONE banana in a one gallon batch and the banana was the dominant flavor to me! Crazy! It wasn't unpleasant just not my intention.

And you are correct - in a couple of my older books a few banana skins boiled, strained, bit of the water added to wine as a fining agent. I haven't tried it specifically for clearing yet.
 

BigDaveK

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This is very interesting. I just put 1118 in the beginners category, and was going to give it a back shelf status. Due to the fact that it is in most kits for it's aggressive/reliable ferments ( meaning it is a kit fail safe), and many comments on this board about people moving past it, suggesting that most start there, but it leaves room to grow understanding and skill. Also the lack of depth it can give, where other yeasts will develop more character specific to the varietal, 1118 is said to not have those character/nuance building attributes.

Then you read an article on glycerol, something I have not yet considered in wine making, and learn that 1118 is a high producer. Yet, the whole reason for your post is that it produced a wine lacking body in comparison to a yeast with not much higher production characteristics.

Sometimes this hobby can be a bit of a mind #^@% and I am just left staring at the ceiling fan in contemplation. ( NO, I wasn't just doing it as I was trying to express my thoughts!) :rolleyes:

Reading the earlier posts my initial thought was these guys are missing the point. I don't want to add glycerin, I want to learn how to make wine without needing a 'cheat' to get what I am aiming for. That is what Dave is trying to understand. I am not holding firm to that thought after more understanding of the make up of wine and it's natural production in fermentation, but I still NEED to do the experiments before just adjusting at the end.. Having already read of people making wine A with one yeast, and wine B with another to blend for different characteristics, this would be my first area of exploration.

Thinking about it, you have already done it, just not with the intention of blending. I would be very interested to see how a blend of the 2 above wines would compare to them individually. I just tried it with 2 wines with different acidity levels. One I thought was a bit high and the other slightly lacking. Together they made a mess of the subtleties of both and the test gave me abetter appreciation of them both, so I didn't blend, but I am glad I tried.
Is it possible for you and I to have too much fun with this hobby?:)

No.

For me examining different yeasts will be a priority next year. The basics and flavors dominated this year and now I have a decent variety to make comparisons. I'm pleased with 95% of my wines and I get a little giddy thinking a change of yeast may make them better....or they may turn into disappointments. Only one way to find out.

And I remembered something because of this topic - my Black Hungarian wine used 71B and then I used the pulp to start the Black Hungarian dessert wine. Since my intention was to step feed to get a higher ABV than 71B could manage I added 1118. Now I have renewed and increased interest about the result.
 

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For my peach wine, I used 5 lbs. of peaches and 1 lb. of bananas per gallon. I prepared "banana water" by simmering the bananas (w/o peel), then strained the liquid and added it to the must. The peach flavor was forward, with a hint of banana in the background. But if I had left the bananas in the primary and/or added the skins, the banana flavor would probably have been stronger. I only add bananas to fruits that would taste good with banana.

Next time I plan to increase the amount of peaches.
 

winemanden

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I've added bananas for body, and it works, but I now have to be very selective. I put ONE banana in a one gallon batch and the banana was the dominant flavor to me! Crazy! It wasn't unpleasant just not my intention.

And you are correct - in a couple of my older books a few banana skins boiled, strained, bit of the water added to wine as a fining agent. I haven't tried it specifically for clearing yet.
Different people taste things differently. My wife used to be a Supertaster compared to me. She could always tell which wines had banana gravy in the recipe, whereas myself would be none the wiser if I hadn't known otherwise. Maybe the banana taste would have been more prominent if I had boiled the skins. I only ever used the fruit.
 

VinesnBines

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This is very interesting. I just put 1118 in the beginners category, and was going to give it a back shelf status. Due to the fact that it is in most kits for it's aggressive/reliable ferments ( meaning it is a kit fail safe), and many comments on this board about people moving past it, suggesting that most start there, but it leaves room to grow understanding and skill. Also the lack of depth it can give, where other yeasts will develop more character specific to the varietal, 1118 is said to not have those character/nuance building attributes.

Then you read an article on glycerol, something I have not yet considered in wine making, and learn that 1118 is a high producer. Yet, the whole reason for your post is that it produced a wine lacking body in comparison to a yeast with not much higher production characteristics.
The Father of Virginia viticulture, Gabriele Rausse, suggests using prise de mousse yeast (EC-1118) as a standard yeast. I know commercial wineries use it and they use other blends. It is far from the beginner's category. I think it has a bad rap from people seeing it in wine kits. Just because it is reliable and included in kits doesn't mean it is sub-standard. Think of it as the WD-40 of yeasts. It works for a variety of fermentations and is a gold standard.

I do use other yeasts for certain varieties but I keep a large supply of EC-1118.
 

BigDaveK

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Different people taste things differently. My wife used to be a Supertaster compared to me. She could always tell which wines had banana gravy in the recipe, whereas myself would be none the wiser if I hadn't known otherwise. Maybe the banana taste would have been more prominent if I had boiled the skins. I only ever used the fruit.
I'm constantly amazed how some people can't taste something I find blatantly obvious. And vice versa. Mouths are funny.
 
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Think of it as the WD-40 of yeasts. It works for a variety of fermentations and is a gold standard.
Yup! I keep a packet of EC-1118 on hand as it is THE go-to yeast for problems. If it can't ferment it, nothing can.

Kits include EC-1118 as it's as foolproof as it gets. Looking down on it for that reason is not warranted. It's used because it is the best tool for the job, e.g., ensuring beginners with no experienced help produce a good result. While other yeasts may produce a better result, EC-1118 always produces a good result.
 

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