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homer

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I have several carboys of White wine that has not been "Cold Stabilized" it's time to bottle, what is the consensus, does white always need to be run through the "Cold Cycle" ? bk,
 

Mismost

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not required.

will it help? maybe.

I hope your wine is clearer than my answer!
 
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homer

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Cloudy... your answer that is, the wine is clear as a bell. Maybe I'll do 1/2 ? bk
 

Johnd

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Ok, I'll take a shot and give you my opinion.

Wine diamonds are not considered to be a wine flaw.

If you're a commercial winery, do CS, you don't want your product to have diamonds, too many people don't understand them.

If you're a home winemaker, and you don't care about them, and like your wine the way it is, bottle it.

If you're a home winemaker and hate diamonds, by all means, do CS, then check your numbers and taste, adjust if needed, and bottle.

If you have a problem with your wine that CS will improve, and you understand the effects of CS on your wine, based on its pH, it is a valuable tool.

I'm somewhere in the middle. All of my wine is bulk aged at 55, I get diamonds in bulk sometimes, but it never makes it to the bottle. Adjustments to pH / TA are made prior to bottling as needed.
If someone puts my wine in the fridge in the 30's, and it throws diamonds, they'll just have to deal with that for storing wine too cold.

In short, other than 55F storage, unless I am conquering a problem, I don't CS down near freezing just to do it. Just my opinion.
 

CryptoStorm

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Taste and Titration is a better method than PH.

By cold stabilizing you're removing tartaric acid which acts as a preservative by lowering the pH of the wine. It may be more susceptible to spoilage if you plan on keeping it in your cellar for a long time.

If you are going to drink it all right away you can go either way. Try cold stabilizing only half and see which one you prefer..
 

jburtner

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I've got a kit chardonnay which I added dried apricot to during primary ferment. It's pH is pretty low at about 3.3 and it tastes tart. May try CS in the fridge on half of it to see if thet will help. My other Brehm Chardonnays measure pH 3.83 after ferment and mlf and might need a little acid to taste. Don't want to blend those two so am looking at options for both.

Cheers!
-johann
 

Johnd

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I've got a kit chardonnay which I added dried apricot to during primary ferment. It's pH is pretty low at about 3.3 and it tastes tart. May try CS in the fridge on half of it to see if thet will help. My other Brehm Chardonnays measure pH 3.83 after ferment and mlf and might need a little acid to taste. Don't want to blend those two so am looking at options for both.

Cheers!
-johann
If you don't want to blend, and decide to CS the 3.3, the pH will get lower, stifling your efforts, try to ease the pH up to taste with Kbicarb.

With the 3.83, CS will worsen your problem, precipitating out the tartaric and raising the pH. Work it down to taste, slowly, with tartaric.

With both, store them in bulk around 55F, you may get slight diamond activity, but work them slowly til they taste good and are stable before bottling, then continue storage at 55F+.
 

jburtner

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Ph will lower? Really? I'll start trying the additives then slowly a little at a time only to taste and taking the pH/TA measurements as a reference.

Cheers and thanks for the notes!
-johann
 

Johnd

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Ph will lower? Really? I'll start trying the additives then slowly a little at a time only to taste and taking the pH/TA measurements as a reference.

Cheers and thanks for the notes!
-johann
I know it's counterintuitive, but the divining point is right at pH 3.6. Lower than that and CS will drop your pH, higher than that and CS will raise your pH.

If you're interested in the chemistry, quite a few articles have been written about the science behind the scenes.
 

FTC Wines

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Ok, I'm a little confused. I thought if you have a low ph wine say 3.22 and you did a cold stabilization the ph would rise. I just did this & it did rise from the 3.22 to 3.34, not great but better. Lots of diamonds dropped too. It was a juice bucket Cab. Roy
 

Boatboy24

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There's a lot of confusing information out there. My process has been to use Potassium Carbonate (not bicarbonate, though some use that), followed by cold stabilization. 3.8g/gal to move pH up by 0.1 is the recommended dose, but my experience has been that is more than twice what you need. In all honesty, a Chardonnay with a pH of ~3.3 is just about right.

I have two kits that I believe I messed up by using straight CS. They were both En Primeur (Amarone and Pinot Noir). The kits included an additive (which I don't remember now) that was supposed to keep the wine diamonds in solution for longer. I thought I'd be smart and use CS to precipitate them out before bottling. I wasn't testing pH at the time, but both wines were quite good prior to CS. Afterward, they were tart. The Amarone eventually mellowed and is pretty good, but the Pinot is still tart. These wines are coming up on 4 years of age now.
 
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Johnd

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Ok, I'm a little confused. I thought if you have a low ph wine say 3.22 and you did a cold stabilization the ph would rise. I just did this & it did rise from the 3.22 to 3.34, not great but better. Lots of diamonds dropped too. It was a juice bucket Cab. Roy
Roy, here's the link to an article that I posted on another thread that describes some of the chemistry behind the scenes. While I can't explain why your wine behaved in the opposite manner, just be glad that it worked out!!!!

http://extension.psu.edu/food/enology/analytical-services/cold-stabilization-options-for-wineries
 

FTC Wines

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Thanks J & J, pretty sure I read that article & even printed it out. Will re-read tonight. I have been plagued with low ph wines & im not sure why. But Working on it! Roy
 

Johnd

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Thanks J & J, pretty sure I read that article & even printed it out. Will re-read tonight. I have been plagued with low ph wines & im not sure why. But Working on it! Roy
Low pH in the grapes you are growing? Aren't you in Florida? Should be able to get enough hang time and sun there to ripen / lower acidity in a grape I would think. But then again, I've never grown a grape...................
 

FTC Wines

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John, When we grew our own grapes in the Ga Mts we didn't have much of an issue, but didn't have a Venmetric 300 then, LOL. We get fresh grapes from Calif, buckets from Calif & Chile. The Chilean buckets seem to be better. Also do kits, where the ph tends to be better. Also buy concentrates from Home Winery & others. Roy
 

Johnd

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John, When we grew our own grapes in the Ga Mts we didn't have much of an issue, but didn't have a Venmetric 300 then, LOL. We get fresh grapes from Calif, buckets from Calif & Chile. The Chilean buckets seem to be better. Also do kits, where the ph tends to be better. Also buy concentrates from Home Winery & others. Roy
Gotcha, for some reason I thought you were growing your own. I'm surprised you're having low pH problems with the Cali stuff, the ones I've gotten have typically been on the other end with higher BRIX and higher pH, but the batch of Chileans I did last year was lowish BRIX and low pH. Just goes to show how things are different from year to year and vineyard to vineyard........
 

GreginND

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Ok, I'm a little confused. I thought if you have a low ph wine say 3.22 and you did a cold stabilization the ph would rise. I just did this & it did rise from the 3.22 to 3.34, not great but better. Lots of diamonds dropped too. It was a juice bucket Cab. Roy

Remember that pH is a measure of acid strength, not the amount of acid. Acid strength is tempered by various buffers in the solution. It may be counterintuitive that when you lower the acid (precipitate tartrates) that the pH would actually go lower. But you are not just removing tartaric acid, you are also removing potassium which can change the buffering capacity of the solution making the remaining acid have a greater strength. There is often a tipping point when you get low enough acid that it becomes weaker as you remove more. The empirical observations for this tipping point were likely done with vinifera varieties and hybrids may be different.

I should mention that the numbers for this tipping point, and whether or not you will even see a change in the pH with cold stabilization and the direction of that change is highly variable and really not predictable.

All that being said, don't forget to taste! That is more important than any number you can measure.
 
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CryptoStorm

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The pH of the grape has a lot to do with when the grape is picked. Even the difference between picking in the morning and evening will change the pH and the sugar content of grapes.
 

FTC Wines

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Thanks Greg, Just saw this post, that helps explain a few things. We should be in N. Dakota early Sept & will try and stop by your Winery for a taste. Roy
 
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