Can too sweet plum wine be "fixed" ?

[Fruit]

I had problems in February with plum wine fermentation.
Today I tried this wine in one of tanks (50 liters beer keg), as it was time to rack and wine is very sweet.
I never wanted to make it sweet, it must be result of stuck fermentation.
(I did not measure SG, will do that properly in couple weeks after I fix pumping problem and I need glass cylinder too-waiting for Post to deliver it).
Am I right this is basically unfixable situation ?
Or should I try to fire up new fermentation, with some proper starter, new yeast and new yeast nutrition ? That would be a Plan A.
(Temperature may be a problem now, we have colder months coming).
Plan B... distill it and make some Slivovitz ? Can very sweet plum wine be distilled successfully ?

 

[Rice_Guy]

You have several choices with a sweet wine: first is that at any sweetness level there is an acid level which matches that flavor.

A guideline for where to balance TA on wine;
after club contest this year I collected eight first place wines which are the red triangles
View attachment 81200
The sample set "cloud" is primarily commercial wines, with some collected in the vinters club and here on WineMakingTalk
NOTE: TA is one of several quality traits which a first place wine has as absence of flavor defect, appropriate aroma for the variety and clarity , , , etc.

Second, tannins act on the taste buds like an acid. There are finishing tannins available which can be added to a wine to tweak the flavors so that it is more like a red wine (many of the points under the green band in the graphic above. This is a harder fix since tannins take time to incorporate into the wine, there can be some guessing on outcome. On the positive tannins are antioxidants so they improve how many years the good wine flavors last, therefore I like to use them.
A third direction is to try a restart. Without gravity numbers to tell where you are this is more questionable. You could be dry already and simply put together a low acid wine or your could have lots of sugar left which opens up the risk of some other organism growing in the wine. ,,,, You need 5% alcohol to have beer like/ refrigerated stability.
My guess is that most stuck fermentations are due to low YAN and have become a fan of organic nitrogen (ex Fermaid O) and TONSA 2.0 (total organic nitrogen step nutrition). It is hard/ maybe impossible to grow yeast if you are already over 9% alcohol. This points to testing to see where you are and calculating alcohol based on the starting gravity.

Good luck! ,,,, If you like the flavors now you have made good wine and are only tweaking the balance.

 

[winemaker81]

What was the OG and what yeast did you use? Unless your OG was way high, it's just a matter of getting the fermentation restarted.

Make an overnight starter with EC-1118, inoculate the next morning, and wait 24 hours before stirring. My notes for making a starter are here:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/

 

[Fruit]

In the meantime, I racked all that problematic wines twice, mixed some of them so that finally there are 3 different wines.
Today I measured SG with hydrometer, all wines discussed here are plum fruit wines.
Wine 1 SG=0.98 I tried and it seems to be lightly sweet. Wife said "it is not sweet, its dry". Not sure then
Wine 2 SG=1.03 Very sweet
Wine 3 SG=1.032 Bloody sweet !

I am not delighted with taste of any of them and most important-I never wanted to make sweet wines !
All of them are hazy.

My guess to explain why fermentation was stuck is that February was terribly hot down here (Australia-normally February it hottest month in australian summer and there were some record temp. in Febr). My wine lab is in a garage-100% corrugated steel, walls and roof.
I think temperature in Feb. could be higher than 40C, maybe even 50C in my garage...and I think that killed little friends.

Am I right my only chance to save them (about 180 liters !) is to re-start fermentation, with help of starter kit ?
If doing so-any adise how to do that ? Should I add some sugar and nutrients to wine, mix well and then add starter kit ?
Winter is round the corner here, too cold-I would have to use that heating belts to warm wine up...or better to wait several months for late spring time ?
But I am afraid to do so as some bad creatures could ruin my low voltage wine (I do not believe it has more than 5%-7% but I did not measure SG when I was starting so no idea really.)
Perhaps I will mix Wine 1 with both 2 and 3 and then try to ferment again.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Wine #1 is less than 1.000 gravity. The frequent statement here is that if you are below one you are done. ,,, anyway you are likely to do as much bad by trying ti improve it. You can fix the taste by adding more acid.
Wine #2 & #3 at 1.03n have substantial. residual sugar. You would have an improvement in stability by removing more sugar. I would start a starter with Fermax (organic nutrient) > add a liter of wine to the starter wait for it to acclimate > add two liters of the wine and wait for it to acclimate > add four liters of wine and wait for it to acclimate > mix everything together (how many liters are these carboys)
It would also work to start another wine > at a week rack it and then add the lees to the high gravity wine.

 

[winemaker81]

My guess to explain why fermentation was stuck is that February was terribly hot down here (Australia-normally February it hottest month in australian summer and there were some record temp. in Febr). My wine lab is in a garage-100% corrugated steel, walls and roof.
I think temperature in Feb. could be higher than 40C, maybe even 50C in my garage...and I think that killed little friends.

Yeast can survive 40C, but it's not good for the wine. You want to keep it below 30C, and IMO that's still too hot. And once fermentation is done, you don't want to age the wine at those temperatures. I typically ferment at 17-21C, depending on the temperature of my cellar. For future reference, you need to find a better area to make wine, else you'll be getting the same result.

I've been using overnight starters for 2 years, and they work wonders. The idea is to rehydrate the yeast in an environment it finds more ideal, let the yeast reproduce overnight to create a larger initial colony, then carefully add to the must. This is my method of doing this:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
In your case, I'd use EC-1118, as it's the workhorse of the wine yeast world, and is best at handling adverse conditions.

 

[Fruit]

will do as you said.

Cold now, I ordered couple of heating belts (35W).
I will transfer wine back to 30 ltr fermenters, get them to about 20C and try again.

But do I need to add some new, extra nutrient and sugar (to wine, I am not asking about starter kit here) ?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Adding sugar will make high alcohol, ,,, you add only if you want alcohol.
Starting a new culture with Fermax should be enough, ,,, unless you were very deficient to start.

Did you check Bryans site. It is good.

 

[Fruit]

Yes, I saw Bryons site, impressive. I will learn a lot and follow.

 

[winemaker81]

But do I need to add some new, extra nutrient and sugar (to wine, I am not asking about starter kit here) ?

The small amount of sugar in the starter is initial food to get the yeast going.

As David (@Rice_Guy) said, you don't need to add sugar to the must. You're in a situation where you want to reduce the sugar level, so adding more compounds it.

While this is not your situation, it's very possible to have too much sugar -- each yeast strain has a limit to how much alcohol it can survive in. Given enough sugar, yeast will literally poison it's own environment.

I recommended using EC-1118 as it has a published tolerance of 18%, so it's ideal for finishing a stuck ferment. Some less common wine yeast have a tolerance as low as 9%, so if you started with a low tolerance yeast, it's easy to add too much sugar.

 

[Fruit]

"You can fix the taste by adding more acid."
Please advice how to do that or add some links with knowledge...?
Thx

 

[winemaker81]

"You can fix the taste by adding more acid."
Please advice how to do that or add some links with knowledge...?
Thx

Bench testing is your best tool. The simplest method is to draw 2 samples of wine -- one is the control while the other will be modified. Add small amounts of acid to #2, mixing well, then tasting. Compare against #1 (unmodified control) for comparison. Note that you are reducing the volume of #2 with each tasting, so small amounts of acid have an increasing effect.

A better choice to draw ~5 samples, #1 is the control, and add increasing amounts of acid to the other 4. Note that the amount of acid is tiny for small samples, so you need a finely graduated scale. Taste them all, and if you are happy with one, use that ratio for the carboy. If none are sufficient, draw more samples and try again with more acid.

When adding to the entire carboy, DO NOT trust your calculation. If you think you need to add 2 tsp tartaric to a 23 liter carboy, first add 1 tsp, mix well, and taste. Then add 1/2 tsp, stir well, and taste. You may add 1/4 tsp next or the final 1/2 tsp. You may decide you don't need it all, or you may decide it needs a bit more.

Me? I use a riskier method -- I add acid to the entire carboy, stir well, then draw a small tasting sample. The risk is adding too much acid, which may require correction in the other direction. Note that when I do this, I'm using very small amounts of acid, e.g., as little as 1/4 tsp in 23 liters of wine. When I think I'm close, I stop, let the wine rest a week, then taste again.

Like most things in winemaking, the P word is invoked. Don't be in a rush and be willing to stop and come back to it later.

 

[Fruit]

Is tartaric acid best for this application ? Are there any other options/choices ?

Plum wine that I will try to improve by adding acid is hazy. It was made in February.
I racked it recently and it is now aging.
Should I add acid now or better to leave it for another several weeks/couple months to clarify a bit more and add acid after that (after next-possibly last racking) ? Or should I apply bentonite now and use acid after that ?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Plum is a high pectin fruit (the stuff that makes jelly). pectin creates a haze in wine. The two choices are let it since it is cosmetic or add pectase enzyme. The enzyme is slow in wine but eventually breaks the molecule so it comes out of solution.

You can use any food grade acid. Tartaric has a clean flavor. Acid blend has a citrus flavor since it is mainly citric acid. Malic acid has sharp freshly picked acid notes. Flavor wise you can also decrease the sensation of sugar by adding a tannin

You original post had high gravity that creates a risk of refermentation or infection. If you keep the wine for months that will cause problems. The other choices are refrigerate as a beer would or drink it soon, ,,, and again a pectin haze is cosmetic.

 

[Fruit]

I intend to add acid (as good people advised) to wine #1 only (SG=0.98).
Wine#2 (sweet) and #3 (bloody sweet !) will be re-started soon, perhaps next weekend.

 

[Fruit]

Your help needed please, URGENTLY

Appr 12 hours ago (early evening) I made starters as per Bryan's instruction "How to Make a Yeast Starter".
All 4 bottles were foaming (although a bit differently) within 30 min.
(White papers are just a tissues to block beasts from entering in there during night.
Bottles are in big pot for temp. control and temp. stabilization-I tried to keep temp at about 30C for first couple hours, until I went to sleep.
Water to mix with yeasts+nutrient+sugar was appr 35C.
Temp dropped during night to about 17-20C. ).

It is time to put starters into fermenter tanks but I am not sure...
There is no any or almost no any foaming now, it seems everything is sitting on bottom, temp now is 30C-31C.
Wine in tanks was heated all night (with heat belts) and it reads 20C-22C now, it will probably heat up a bit more soon as air temp. is slowly growing now
(its 8.50am here now).

What should I do ?
Do my starters look promising-usable ? Or should they all be grown, foaming, active as on Bryan's photos ?
Should I add some nutrient to bottles and wait before pouring starters into wine ?
Or did my starters fail and are not usable ?

Photos attached show starters 30-60 min after mixing them (with paper on top of bottles) and same bottles now.

 

[winemaker81]

Your help needed please, URGENTLY

Temperature control of the starters is not part of the plan. The initially hotter temperature is more to the yeast's liking which gets it going before the starter slowly cools down to room temperature. The second stage of the starter adjusts the starter temperature to the must temperature, to reduce the shock.

By keeping the temperature artificially high, the yeast probably ate all the sugar, which is why there is no activity.

Add 1 tsp sugar to each bottle and swirl to mix. Let the starter cool to the temperature of the must, then add it.

Do me a favor -- re-read the starter instructions and PM me regarding anything that isn't clear. I thought the instructions were clear, but given that I wrote them, they are to me.

I'm going to edit the starter instructions anyway -- FWK adds a LOT more sugar than I do, so while mine work, a bit more sugar may make it work better. Like most things in life, it's a work-in-progress.

Note: My fall (well, fall in the USA) wines ferment at 17-20 C (63-68 F) and I do not heat the must. I prefer colder ferments, and have fermented winter white kits at 14.5 C (58 F), although that's taken as long as 3 weeks to complete. A good starter that produces a larger, active initial colony makes a HUGE difference.

 

[Fruit]

Thanks for your response Bryan.

Your starter instructions and helpful explanations ("why ?") are perfectly clear (to me).

My starter's initial temp. was about 35C. It was about 5pm-6pm.
It is almost winter here, temp at night drops to 4C-7C (outside), recently I go to sleep early and we do not heat our house during nights, so within couple hours temp (inside) was round 15C-17C.
That is why I decided to put bottles into big pot with 35-38C water-that kept my starters "warm" for some time.
Otherwise their temp would drop really quickly.

In the morning next day starters temp. was about 20C.
I slowly added some hot water to big pot and so starters temp was raised (slowly, gently) to about 25C-26C.
That did not trigger any activity, so later I added about one tsp of white sugar and about half tsp of same nutrient to each bottle-that worked and soon some obvious activity was there again.
At 11.30am I poured them all to 4 tanks (25-26 liters of wine each).

Tanks are in garage with "good ventilation" (so cold inside) and they were heated with heat belts for good several hours before.
Wine temp. was 23C (on top of wine) and starters temp was about 25C.
Heat belts are close to the bottom on my tanks so I suppose temp. below top could be slightly higher.
I did not want to delay applying starters any longer and I had to leave anyway.

BTW, that digital thermometers (like sticky tape) are pretty accurate.
I measured with quality thermometer also (each tank) and digital ones displayed 1C lower then my quality thermometer.

Nutrients which you recommend are not available here.
I used no brand nutrient supplied by local, big beer-wine making supplier.
Yeast were EC-1118.

Now waiting...

If that attempt fails, I will probably try again with new starters, perhaps with more sugar.
I am not sure about quality of nutrient, I do not know.

 

[winemaker81]

It is almost winter here, temp at night drops to 4C-7C (outside), recently I go to sleep early and we do not heat our house during nights, so within couple hours temp (inside) was round 15C-17C.

Okay, that makes perfect sense.

 

[winemaker81]

Nutrients which you recommend are not available here.
I used no brand nutrient supplied by local, big beer-wine making supplier.
Yeast were EC-1118.

We met friends for dinner so my last reply was a bit rushed.

Whatever nutrient you can get should work. Folks have their preferences, but any nutrient is better than no nutrient.

EC-1118 is the workhorse of the winemaking world. It has high ABV tolerance, is fast growing, and cheerfully stomps out competitors for sugar. The one negative is that it does not bring much to the table, while other yeast strains will emphasize and/or enhance various characteristics, including varietal character.

Kit vendors usually include EC-1118 as it is the most foolproof yeast, so beginners who have no experienced help are most likely to get a good result on the first try.

23-25 C is a good temperature, so if you can maintain that, you'll get a good ferment. I prefer to ferment below 21 C (preserves aromatics), but that's an opinion, not a requirement. I know a winemaker who ferments his reds at 29 C to get the most color extraction. It's a trade-off and all choices are valid ones.

Keep in mind that if you ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 different responses. My suggestion is to always pay attention to why someone does what they do, as that will help you make your decisions.