Calcium carbonate?

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JimmyT

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I was just at my local wine making supply shop and was going to by some calcium carbonate to adjust acid and seen several other different carbonates there. I think one was sodium and the other was potassium. What's the difference in the different ones besides what the main ingredient is(calcium, sodium, potassium)? I've seen calcium over and over here then went there and it confused me a little.
 
I would suggest that potassium carbonate is the one you want. Especially if you are going to cold stabilize later so that you can drop out some of the potassium as potassium tartrate. Calcium carbonate works but it is best if you know that the predominant acid is tartaric acid.

Do not add sodium to your wine!
 
Calcium carbonate is good to use pre-ferment. On wines with tartaric acid, it will drop it out at room temp. On non-tartaric wines, it works by neutralizing the acid. We use lots of the stuff-----on grapes and non-grapes.

If you use potassium, you MUST cold stabilize at refrigerator temps or below. It can be a pain to do that, which is why we don't like using it.
 
What Turock said. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, - depends on when you are adding - preferment or postferment.
 
Can you still use the calcium post fermentation effectively? Does it work well with reducing all the types of acid or is its forte tartaric?
 
Calcium carbonate will react with both Tartaric and Malic acid. But the calcium malate is more soluble than calcium tartrate. Thus, it may not precipitate all the calcium out. If you need to do a deacidification that is too great you may end up with a chalky taste in the wine. Best to only adjust TA by no more than 0.2% using calcium carbonate.
 
Calcium carbonate is good to use pre-ferment. On wines with tartaric acid, it will drop it out at room temp. On non-tartaric wines, it works by neutralizing the acid. We use lots of the stuff-----on grapes and non-grapes.

If you use potassium, you MUST cold stabilize at refrigerator temps or below. It can be a pain to do that, which is why we don't like using it.
Is there any harm in using calcium carbonate after fermentation has started? This is in order to increase PH so my must will be ready for MLF afterwards. I wouldn't bring my own question into someone else's thread, but I think Jimmy T is also looking for similar information regarding whether it can be used after fermentation. I have some of the same questions. I've read where it is to be used before fermentation, but nothing about what would happen if it was used during or after. I've been looking all over the place for this information.

I know it's better to test ph prior to starting fermentation. I just got the PH meter after it was started. I think other people (new like me) have had similar situations..... Dealing with cooler weather higher acid finger lakes ny grapes here.
 
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I did ask about post fermentation and that must have been overlooked. I was just being patient to see if someone would pick up on it. My gut tells me you can do it post ferm but is better pre. If I were to guess i'd say no go on adjusting during fermentation.
 
Post ferment, you need to use the potassium. This is why we're very "anal" about making adjustments pre-ferment so that we're not stuck having to do it post ferment. Even tho we have a dumbwaiter going down to the winery, it's still difficult getting a carboy from the winery to the garage frig!!! Sometimes tho, cold stabilization needs to be done and is the best way to manipulate tartaric acid.
 
Now that I have a PH meter, I will be sure to make PH and TA adjustments prior to fermentation on everything. I realized the importance of PH when it was time to start thinking about doing MLF with my first red wine. Also, a couple of my white wines from last year ended up being a little more acidic than I would have liked. Learning new things every day.
 
That's what I was looking for! Thank god I didn't need to adjust mine after with the potassium since I don't really have a way to cold stabilize right now. I'll be sure to check and adjust before religiously from now on!
 
How about using calcium carbonate in country wines? Specifically, I am thinking about cranberry that is way too acidic. Last year when I made a 5 gallon batch of cranberry, I needed to add 2 tbsp of CaCO3 for it to even start primary fermentation. When I drink it, though, I do taste just a bit of bitterness (not really bitterness, but this is as close as I can describe it). But I am not sure if that's chalk or cranberry, or some combination of the two.
 
Post ferment, you need to use the potassium. This is why we're very "anal" about making adjustments pre-ferment so that we're not stuck having to do it post ferment. Even tho we have a dumbwaiter going down to the winery, it's still difficult getting a carboy from the winery to the garage frig!!! Sometimes tho, cold stabilization needs to be done and is the best way to manipulate tartaric acid.

Not clear about one thing. If you were to add Potassium Carbonate after fermentation are you saying that you must cold stabilize to avoid problems with tartaric crystals forming or that even if you are using the K-Carbonate on say cider or mead (no problem with tartaric acid) you still must cold stabilize for other reasons.
 
Not clear about one thing. If you were to add Potassium Carbonate after fermentation are you saying that you must cold stabilize to avoid problems with tartaric crystals forming or that even if you are using the K-Carbonate on say cider or mead (no problem with tartaric acid) you still must cold stabilize for other reasons.
From what I read, I think the cold stabilizing is to help the tartrate crystals form at the bottom of the carboy, then you just rack the wine off the tartrate crystals. When you put a bottle of wine that wasn't cold stabilized in the refrigerator, the crystals form anyway. Does the Potassium Carbonate just help the formation of the tartrate crystals along in some way? It happens without the Potassium Carbonate, but I just assumed the chemicals help it along, removing more acid than without. I'm not totally sure.
 
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Any time you add potassium ions, you increase the likelihood of buffering acids and producing potassium bitartrate crystals (aka: wine diamonds or cream of tartar). You don't HAVE to cold stabilize, but realize that you are likely to form those precipitates in the bottle after adding more potassium to the wine.

One of the main drawbacks of calcium carbonate usage is that calcium tartrate crystals form much more slowly than potassium bitartrate. Thus, if you add it after fermentation and later in the process, you will likely have to wait a long time before you know if it is stable from precipitates.
 
Any time you add potassium ions, you increase the likelihood of buffering acids and producing potassium bitartrate crystals (aka: wine diamonds or cream of tartar). You don't HAVE to cold stabilize, but realize that you are likely to form those precipitates in the bottle after adding more potassium to the wine.

One of the main drawbacks of calcium carbonate usage is that calcium tartrate crystals form much more slowly than potassium bitartrate. Thus, if you add it after fermentation and later in the process, you will likely have to wait a long time before you know if it is stable from precipitates.
I was picturing (picturing only, no chemistry knowledge to back it up) the excess acid being in the crystals left at the bottom of the carboy after cold stabilizing with potassium carbonate or bicarbonate. I was thinking you rack the wine off the crystals, excess acid is left behind in the crystals. With calcium carbonate, I didn't know there were crystals that precipitated off since cold stabilization isn't part of the instructions on the calcium carbonate. Is it actually that they all reduce acid, regardless of the tartrate crystals? Are the crystals are just a byproduct not really all the leftover acid? Does potassium carbonate and potassium bicarbonate speed up the creation of the crystals, whereas calcium carbonate slows it down? If the acid isn't in the crystals, does that mean potassium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate can be added any time after fermentation and reduce the acid....I'll just want to cold stabilize prior to bottling, which would be months down the road? For example, I'm making a red wine for the first time, but the grapes are high acid/low ph. I'm planning to do malolactic fermentation after alcohol fermentation is complete. The malolactic bacteria I already bought requires a PH greater than 3.2 and I have a PH of 3.1. If, after I press the grapes the PH is still too low, can I add potassium bicarbonate and then the malolactic bacteria without cold stabilizing in between? This will be my first attempt at malolactic fermentation.
 
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Now I'm getting a little more confused. What's the difference between k-carbonate and k-bicarbonate?
 
Now I'm getting a little more confused. What's the difference between k-carbonate and k-bicarbonate?
I don't know. I'm very confused too, which doesn't help with other people's confusion. I have a bottle of "Acid Reducing Crystals" which contains potassium bicarbonate. Now that I'm looking at the bottle, it doesn't say anything about cold stabilizing, by the way. Books and online things I've read say that. It just says it reduces acid through a neutralizing process. I have another bottle of "Acidex Super-K" which contains potassium bicarbonate and potassium bitartrate. That bottle does say to cold stabilize for 2 weeks prior to racking off the tartrate crystals. I also have calcium carbonate with really simple instructions on it saying how much to use per gallon and to use it before fermentation, no other instructions. I don't have anything containing potassium carbonate, just bicarbonate.

I'm very confused, I'm sorry if my confusion is worsening your confusion. I'm not knowledgeable on chemistry.
 

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