blackberry steamed juice / brix question

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6#'s per gallon so, 6 gallons = 36-40# a batch.
You can freeze and then thaw add pectic enzyme and 5 gal water and depending on the sweetness level you may get a gravity on a good day of 1.020. Then add sugar and water to 1.080
or freeze fruit and Steam juice them. This way you will get a higher gravity maybe 1.025-1.030 tops. add sugar to 1.080
Why would I do anything different with concentrate that has been recon to single strength?
Grapes are the only fruit that is picked at a high brix 22-25
These never need sugar or water.
No kidding?!
Walkers has 5 gallon of BBerry already done at a gravity of 1.080 and U just add yeast.
thats the shortened version.

At $5.79/g as I listed earlier, I would have 5g of 1010 bb juice for $28.95. That leaves $49.80 to buy sugar. Walker's is the one that sounds expensive to me.

Is their 5g a concentrate?
Is it single-strength with sugar added?
Is it diluted (less than single-strength) with sugar added?

The link you provided doesn't say.

I'm still not seeing why you think $5.79/g for single-strength bb juice at 1010 is expensive.
 
Is their 5g a concentrate?
Is it single-strength with sugar added?
Is it diluted (less than single-strength) with sugar added?


Now thats a good question and I have no answer. Call them and see what they say and get back.
 
Is their 5g a concentrate?
Is it single-strength with sugar added?
Is it diluted (less than single-strength) with sugar added?

Now thats a good question and I have no answer. Call them and see what they say and get back.

Better yet, when YOU make a recommendation over another, why don't YOU find out a little bit about what YOU are recommending before you recommend it?

That would be far more helpful than saying "Wine needs to be 1080", don't you think?
 
Bob,
Point taken. But if these juices are wine quality I wonder why they say nothing about making wine.
Walkers makes Wine quality juices and I know everyone who bought them are happy.
I looked at the specs @ milne they state acid 2-6% "Acidity: 2.0 to 6.0% as citric; varies with crop year" which is high. Not sure if thats the diluted or concentrate.
If you have a 24oz sample why dont you use it, make a small batch before you bet the 5 gal can and report.
 
Bob,
Point taken. But if these juices are wine quality I wonder why they say nothing about making wine.
Walkers makes Wine quality juices and I know everyone who bought them are happy.
I looked at the specs @ milne they state acid 2-6% "Acidity: 2.0 to 6.0% as citric; varies with crop year" which is high. Not sure if thats the diluted or concentrate.
If you have a 24oz sample why dont you use it, make a small batch before you bet the 5 gal can and report.

That is exactly the reason I have the sample. When I posted the link, I made it clear that I had not tested it yet.

I did talk to a Milne rep on the phone. His claim is that a lot of places use their concentrate for winemaking - but, as I said, I haven't actually tested yet.

I WILL report back here with the results when I do test it.
 
I also emailed them last night for all pricing and request for samples. Also asked @ winemaking.
It's alot of $ for an untested concentrate so testing is the way to go. Funny that on their web site they say nothing about wine making. I would think that mentioning this on the web it would help sales.
Keep an eye on the acid once diluted.
 
I also emailed them last night for all pricing and request for samples. Also asked @ winemaking.
It's alot of $ for an untested concentrate so testing is the way to go. Funny that on their web site they say nothing about wine making. I would think that mentioning this on the web it would help sales.
Keep an eye on the acid once diluted.

GREAT! We'll eventually have two tests! I'm not sure that a blurb about winemaking would help that much. It's blackberry (and other) juice. I checked out their process chart and there is nothing different from any other supplier's process - in the end it's juice that you should be able to do anything with that you could do with juice you've pressed yourself.

My quest for concentrates started when I asked at a local winery where they got their fruit and how they processed it.

The answer was that they get concentrates in drums for all of their fruit wines. They did not reveal their supplier, or their method for using the concentrate. All of their fruit wines are very good even though, obviously, I like some better than others. Their bb wine is SWMBO's favorite commercial wine.

I found several bulk concentrate suppliers online. Most of them are B2B only. Milne was the first I found willing to sell retail.

Unfortunately, all carboys are full and I'm in the peak elderberry harvest. Once I have enough elderberries, I'll be tending the carboys, getting ready for some bottling - and then I'll test the Milne bb concentrate.

I'm pretty sure the acid content is concentrated. Reconstituting 2-6% would give .24-.73%, which is what I would expect from fresh, ripe berries.
 
My quest for concentrates started when I asked at a local winery where they got their fruit and how they processed it.

pretty much same here BobF.
finding a US based retailer of pure blackberry concentrate was also a challenge for me. Cherry / blueberry was fairly easy to find. (brownwood acres)

as far as advertising on their website that its for making wine, well actually most dealers don't go much farther than posting a data sheet (which is good info). Then finding the application is up to you, usually you already have one in mind. I did talk on the phone with greenwood and the guy was friendly, mentioned winemakers buy their bulk concentrate, and said that retail is an option but in 5G pails minimum. They prefer to deal in high volume as B2B.

I just wanted to start this thread to bring some awareness on pure concentrates for fruit winemaking. To see if anybody else was working along the same lines or had experience. I am really surprised at the quality of the reconstituted juice I worked with when I used some montmorency cherry concentrate to make wine. It was really better than any store bought juice, had no additives so you had to keep it frozen. cost per bottle was really low, much better than fresh fruit (barring that its free fruit of course) - and the labor involved was greatly reduced.

another upside to the pure concentrate is that you can get a very strong flavored wine by fiddling with the ratio when you reconstitute. Another thing I did was reconstitute with white grape juice. It gave an amazing mouthfeel / body to a batch of cherry wine and I used no sugar to get to 1090. Another experiment was reconstitute with welches white grape peach juice. interesting flavor and another delicious wine.

I was just glad to make cherry wine that didnt taste like cough syrup, but ended up getting something very good. so I thought I'd share my experience and give a heads up on how high quality a concentrate based wine can be.

cheers
 
ashappar, what was your reconstitution? did you use the 1oz./7 oz. as they recommend when using as a supplement? i haven't been able to find any tart cherries locally, and this might be a fun way to do a first ever cherry batch.
 
thats a good question CG, I should gather up my notes and post something in the recipe section.

what I did when I got the concentrate was first do a taste test on single strength juice after reconstituting with water per the bottle instructions. It was quite good and the gravity was ~1050 if I remember correctly. dont quote me on that though. For drinking as a juice, I would maybe add more water than the instructions said. it was a bit strong / sweet, especially if you are used to store juices cut with apple.

after that it was a series of experiments on small 1G batches.

usually I would add a base other than water, like the white grape or white grape peach, then add the concentrate and stir, then measure gravity, also a taste test. the concentrate is a thick syrup when frozen. My goal was to get strong flavor and not add sugar unless I had to.

the wine result with montmorency concentrate was appealing because it has this pattern when tasted - tart / sweet / tart finish. Color is a deep ruby red. I did have to adjust acidity a bit but not anything unusual compared to a typical fresh fruit recipe.

after fermentation it was about as good as I expected, rather tart and alcohol was very forward in the flavor. the smell was great however. Very cherry. I do remember that I used K1V-1116 yeast. I finished them as a dessert wine by adding more concentrate. The alcohol flavor is hidden now, but still ABV estimated > 12% on most batches. Masking the alcohol is important to me for cherry, but on other wines I can use a dryer style. I suppose thats a preference of the winemaker, I enjoy fruit wines that are at least a bit sweet because the fruit seems to come forward better.
 
for volume, I had two 32oz bottles of cherry concentrate and ended up with about 4G of finished wine. I could have been more efficient, but experiments can be wasteful and I did drink some of the juice too.
 
for volume, I had two 32oz bottles of cherry concentrate and ended up with about 4G of finished wine. I could have been more efficient, but experiments can be wasteful and I did drink some of the juice too.

so, two 32 oz. bottles, how many cans of grape concentrate? and no water? right?
 
montmorency cherry dessert wine from concentrate

my notes are awful. I'll try to expand them from memory as I sip the wine. A larger batch I did in a 3G better bottle and 2x 1G glass carboys. final yield was about 4G and some drinking during bottling by me and helper/bystanders.

I used the 64oz bottles of welches white grape peach (1055 SG) from walmart because they were on sale and tasted really good. I also had 2 cans of welches white grape. skip the white grape conc or use it exclusively if you like, I used it because of a freezer cleanout at the time. the WG peach juice was a good flavor combo with the cherry. I'll definitely do it again.

I planned to add cherry concentrate until I got to 1090. but I overshot by quite a bit (doh!) and had to pour some into 1G carboys and top all up with white grape peach juice and cherry concentrate - more slowly that time. They were all 1090 or a bit above when I started ferment. No sugar added. I started the 3G better bottle fermenting, then used the fermenting wine to start the 1G carboys. there was a small amount of blowout in the 3G.

I aimed for 1090 at first but fed it with cherry conc during secondary ferment to up the alcohol. No quantities on that or an explanation of why I fed the secondary fermentation. I seem to remember a conversation (lecture?) about 1090 OG not being high enough for a true dessert wine, maybe that was my motivation there.

I also drank a fair amount of the cherry juice outright. so its hard for me to say how much cherry concentrate I fermented / wasted by drinking / used to backsweeten.

alcohol taste was strong/forward when secondary fermentation settled down. I let it sit for a while to make sure it was done, I stabilized and sweetened with more concentrate. I didnt record a gravity after sweetening. It was to taste, without measure. I let it sit to clear (didnt record how long), got impatient and used super kleer KC, more settling and then bottled. I did two rackings - at 10 days and 60 days. At fist racking one of the 1G carboys was used to top up the other two and it went away. On first rackings I bring some sediment over. On second racking I try to leave it all behind. When I bottled, there was a fair amount of sediment that had dropped during clearing. I racked all carboys into one 6.5G carboy and siphoned into bottles from there. Just because it was easier to bottle that way.

Start to finish this was a 4 month wine. I bottled it in splits (375ml). I found some shrink caps that almost matched the color of the wine.

I wanted a dessert wine - strong flavor and higher alcohol, then masked with sweetness and more flavor.

to make a recipe for yourself, I would proceed by testing the single strength juice. Test taste, gravity, acidity. standard drill on sulfites and pectic enzyme and use your acid of choice when doing adjustments. I am too lazy it seems recently to take good notes on the must mixing. Maybe too headstrong? I should work on better notes. Most of the text is about racking and bottling state.

Feel free to use cane sugar if you want, to get a wine with a flavor that is where you want it as far as strength goes. With cherry, I'm paranoid of making cough syrup so I really up the fruit flavor. you can finish the flavor during backsweetening. The aroma survived the ferment but the flavor weakened somewhat.

I have blueberry concentrate, and I'll do a 1G batch from single strength juice, then sugar to 1080 adjust acid etc, and see how it turns out. I'll probably try a blueberry dessert wine.

so my notes are poor quality from this years work. but when I drink the wines, I recall the process. Does that happen to anyone else?

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I did a welch's grape concentrate and didn't backsweeten it any. At first the alcohol was very evident, but now that it has aged 6 or 8 months, it's not too bad.
I can't seem to find any white grape concentrate at any of the walmarts or other stores around here.
 
...
I just wanted to start this thread to bring some awareness on pure concentrates for fruit winemaking. To see if anybody else was working along the same lines or had experience. I am really surprised at the quality of the reconstituted juice I worked with when I used some montmorency cherry concentrate to make wine. It was really better than any store bought juice, had no additives so you had to keep it frozen. cost per bottle was really low, much better than fresh fruit (barring that its free fruit of course) - and the labor involved was greatly reduced.
...

I'm glad you started the thread. I hope my results are as positive as yours. I want to make wine, I don't want to be a farmer. By the time all is said and done, I have far more hours into harvest & processing than I do in making wine from the fruit.

I can't think of any reason why the concentrates won't make terrific wine - it seems to work well for the commercial guys.

It will be interesting to see how the trials go.

Even if I end up adding a bit of fresh fruit for skins, the volume of fruit req'd would be drastically reduced.

I think I'll keep detailed notes as I go though! ::
 
My notes are much more verbose ;-)

Yeah i just keep a composition notebook with me and i write what i do, when i do it, and how much of something i do.

Easier for me at the time to hand write what i am doing that to bring my pc with my and type it.

Plus - i would spill something on the pc. :h
 
Yeah i just keep a composition notebook with me and i write what i do, when i do it, and how much of something i do.

Easier for me at the time to hand write what i am doing that to bring my pc with my and type it.

Plus - i would spill something on the pc. :h
Oh no. I print it out and keep in in a binder.
 
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