Barrel Fermenting a White Kit with Surlies

[rhoffart]

Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel. It is a MM Chardonnay Del Veneto. I racked it into the barrel this past Saturday. Note: Don't put 28 degree wine in a barrel then top it off. As it warms it expands.

You really got me thinking about the yeast provided with these kits.

 

[ibglowin]

You will be adding the sulfite in pretty soon right?

 

[robie]

You will be adding the sulfite in soon pretty soon right?

This is the area where I am least comfortable.

The articles said the yeast themselves are supposed to provide a level of protection for awhile... but certainly not a long while.

(There is also the issue of oxidation! Whites are more susceptible than reds. Even with a good bung properly attached, Tim V. wrote there is a lot of air exchange going on between the bung and the inside surface of the top of the carboy. It just isn't as tight a seal as one might think.)

In my research of lees aging I have not been able to determine when sulfites should be added; only that they should NOT be added soon after fermentation is completed.

If one reads Tim V.'s article in Winemaker Magazine, IMO, it reads he added the Kmeta several months down the road. However, he was not very specific, so it is open to interpretation. Regardless, I just can't wait very long unless I get some specifics (very specific!) on the subject!

One article said the yeast don't actually die as quickly as one would think. It indicated the yeast are still "doing things", like producing enzymes for breaking down yeast walls (a process that can ruin a red wine). So, adding Kmeta, which slows them down or sometimes even kills them, too soon is not what is wanted for lees aging. Problem is, it didn't say WHEN it should be added.

I am still trying to find out more about this issue. If something doesn't surface, I'll likely add the Kmeta within a week.

Good thing mankind is very sensitive to the H2S smell. That's why I will need to smell the wine regularly. I'll be watching the color, too.

 

[robie]

I just got this out of another article Tim V. wrote in Winemaker Magazine.

at http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/article/indices/43-yeast/924-sur-lie-wine-kits

............................
• Seven-day primary, rack to carboy and top up

• Stir twice per week for six weeks

• Add 25 PPM FSO2 (about one-quarter teaspoon of metabisulfite powder
per six gallons, or about 1 gram per 23 liters. It’s helpful to get a
sulfite test kit and measure this to double-check your addition)

• Stir once per week for eight weeks

• Stir once per month for one year


...


Sulfite, oak, stink and when to go to bottle

Too little sulfite and your sur lie wine will almost certainly oxidize.
Too much and the SO2 will bind to too many compounds and reduce or
flatten the aromas. Grape winemakers have to worry because their wines
either need to complete or avoid malolactic fermentation. Wine kits
don’t undergo MLF, but need the right amount of sulfite to keep them
from oxidation or colonization by aerobic bacteria.
.............................

It didn't say to NOT add the initial dose of Kmeta; it just says to adjust free SO2 levels after 6 weeks. It does read to me that Kmeta is not added until after the first six weeks of stirring.

All opinions are gladly accepted.

Ugh!

 

[robie]

The following is enough for me to believe that I should maintain proper SO2 levels DURING surlies. I believe it states that I should add the stabilizing amount of Kmeta as soon as fermentation is complete. (see last sentence)

At:

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/surlie/surlie.htm

.........................
It is worth noting that the early use of SO2 increases the number of
compounds that bind with later SO2 additions. Excessive SO2 tends to
oppose wood/oak flavours and stunts flavour development, whereas
insufficient SO2 favours premature ageing and flattens the wine.

When malolactic fermentation (MLF) is to take place, extra care must be
taken with sur lie ageing since no (or very little) sulphur dioxide
will/should be present to protect the wine. Sur lie ageing in this
situation does provide some assistance against oxidation (through
oxidative buffering and the fact that some dissolved carbon dioxide will
remain from fermentation), but it also provides a window of opportunity
for the development of unwanted bacteria. The most secure approach is
to inoculate with a MLF culture early on in the ageing process, or
perhaps during alcoholic fermentation itself. Some winemakers, however,
feel that a period of non-SO2 lees contact post MLF can contribute
further complexity to wines. For more information regarding the
connection between MLF, sulphur dioxide and lees contact, see the MLF article.

In the case of wines which are not to under go MLF, or where a wine has
already completed MLF, it is helpful to maintain suitable sulphur
dioxide levels while sur lie ageing. See the Sulphur Dioxide article for details.
............................

Of course there will be no MLF for a kit wine.

Thanks, Mike, for bringing up your question about sulfites. I have been unclear on this issue from the beginning and knew I would have to re-address it soon enough.

 

[ibglowin]

I haven't done a barrel ferment or a battonage process on a white. I just know that sometimes a wine will hold on to CO2 for dear life and other times it will degas itself in a matter of days after completing fermentation. Almost every white that I didn't top off immediately or keep a close eye on the SO2 has prematurely oxidized to some extent. I would be fearful to leave a white wine in a barrel or in a carboy for too long without some sulfite for protection from browning mostly.

 

[robie]

I haven't done a barrel ferment or a battonage process on a white. I just know that sometimes a wine will hold on to CO2 for dear life and other times it will degas itself in a matter of days after completing fermentation. Almost every white that I didn't top off immediately or keep a close eye on the SO2 has prematurely oxidized to some extent. I would be fearful to leave a white wine in a barrel or in a carboy for too long without some sulfite for protection from browning mostly.

The wine is out of the barrel now.

I agree. Ironically, last evening I again read where some wine makers prefer to hold off SO2 adjustments until well into lees aging. However, the article pointed out that lots of others didn't agree with that approach. So, I'll go ahead and stabilize when I am sure fermentation is complete.

I tasted the 4 reds, which I still have in carboys. Two of them can use some more oak. I put the Melbec in the barrel first.

 

[robie]

Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel. It is a MM Chardonnay Del Veneto. I racked it into the barrel this past Saturday. Note: Don't put 28 degree wine in a barrel then top it off. As it warms it expands.

You really got me thinking about the yeast provided with these kits.

Glad it is of interest to you.

The yeast provided with the kits is a good yeast with a very neutral flavor profile. It is there because it is one of the most reliable strains, and reliability is what we really need when we are starting out. Afterall, the kit manufacturers have to warranty the kits, so they will want to make sure everything they furnish is reliable.

That said, understandably if you don't use their supplied yeast, they won't guarantee the kit.

Once a person gets some experience and understands the characteristics of other yeast strains, along with knowing the strains' need for nutrients, correct temperature range, and alcohol tolerance, he/she might carefully start experimenting.

I see this as one of the first steps in moving toward making wine from fresh/frozen grapes.

The first time I did this the wine got a very bad case of H2S. I didn't properly feed a strain of yeast that its documentation clearly stated it needed more nutrients than some other strains and that it also was more susceptible to H2S than some other strains.

I was able to save the wine, but it could have been a very expensive lesson to learn. If you try this, you really need to do your homework.

Just be careful.

Let us all follow your progress with your new barrel.

 

[ibglowin]

Hey you know the rules! Pics of the new barrel or it never happened!

Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel.

 

[rhoffart]

Hey you know the rules! Pics of the new barrel or it never happened!

Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel.

You seen it over there ...

 

[ibglowin]

Gotta post it here as well!

 

[robie]

Your barrel is prettier than mine! Mine is all water and wine stained on the outside already.

The Melbec I put in it came out of a Mexican carboy, which was filled to the proper point. In order to fill the barrel, I had to add another full 750 ml bottle of commercial Melbec. Guess my barrel is a little over 23 liters. How about yours and Mikes, have you measure the volume?

 

[ibglowin]

One of my barrels takes a about 0.3L less than the other one to top off with for sure. If it was full in a Mexican carboy you know its going to need a bunch to top off in the barrel or an Italian carboy for sure

 

[robie]

Time for the next step.

As planned, the 5 gallons of Chard has been aging on the lees and stirred weekly for three months now. The one gallon reference container has been setting cleared, but unbottled for the same amount of time. Both have been setting in a room at about 65F.

Monday night I added the fining agent to the 5 gallons, which ends the surlies/batonnage experiment. It started clearing right away. I can already easily see my hand through the glass carboy. It will take a couple more weeks at least before it clears.

I sort of modified what I was going to do with my one-gallon reference wine. My intentions was to treat it exactly like the instructions said, but after clearing it, I ended up leaving it on the light lees for this three month period. All the sediment that was in the wine at clearing time was pretty much just the dead yeast.

What this means is that the one-gallon container also went through the surlies process, but not the batonnage. It did set on the lees, just wasn't stirred. Several famous french wineries believe in doing surlies by itself but never batonnage. I am a bit surprised at how smooth the one-gallon has become. It doesn't have that sharp edge some kit chards, which don't go through MLF, have. (Of course kits wines should never go through MLF.)

I guess I shouldn't have let it set on the lees, since I now will never know how it would have turned out, had I processed it based on kit instructions. However, I can live with that difference.

Even though the one gallon went through surlies, it tastes much different than the 5 gallon,which went through batonnage. The 5 gallon definitely has the nutty, biscuity, yeasty flavor one tastes in a champagne. I think once it clears, it is going to be nice.

Once the wine is clear, I'll put both wines through cold stabilization and let it set in the carboys for a couple more months. After that I'll bottle it. I haven't decided when I'll pull the cork on any of it; likely June or July.

I'll taste each carboy before I bottle it and report how it tastes at that time.

 

[robie]

Sorry I forgot to point out the one-gallon of chardonnay, though very smooth, doesn't have the nutty, biscuity, yeasty taste, which the 5-gallon container has. I'm sure the difference is the one gallon was not regularly stirred as was the 5-gallons.

I haven't yet added any oak to either container. The wine was fermented n a brand new 6 gallon oak barrel. I like both oaked and un-oaked chardonnays. I'll taste it soon and determine if I want to add more oak.

 

[ibglowin]

I haven't yet added any oak to either container.

<div style=": rgb255, 255, 255; margin-left: 2px; margin-top: 2px; margin-right: 2px; margin-bottom: 2px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; -: none; ">If one of them was fermented in a brand new barrel I would say one of them has been oaked!

 

[robie]

I haven't yet added any oak to either container.

<div style=": rgb255, 255, 255; margin-left: 2px; margin-top: 2px; margin-right: 2px; margin-bottom: 2px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; -: none; ">If one of them was fermented in a brand new barrel I would say one of them has been oaked!

They were both fermented in my brand new barrel as one batch, then split into two containers afterward, so they both have some oak already, just very little (I'll explain).

What I meant was I haven't added any "additional" oak once the wines were paced in the individual containers. The kit came with two types of oak, but I haven't used any of it, yet.

Interesting but the amount of oaking that took place in the barrel during that one week of fermenting is not nearly as much as if after fermentation I had put the chardonnay in the new barrel for one week. The wine now has very little discernible oak in it.

Apparently the fermentation in the barrel has some affect on the amount of oak the barrel gives off during that period. I was concerned about one week in a new barrel being too much, but Tim V. of Wine Maker Magazine mentioned that fermenting in a new barrel would not oak the wine as much as one might think.

I know that seems to contradict the idea that oak chips/ dust/ powder added during fermentation oaks works faster than if the same oak were added during aging. Go figure.

I am not sure I want to oak the wine any more than the little it already has. I have read some on this and many believe oak doesn't go as well with the results of surlies and batonnage. I will wait and make that determination later through bench trials.

One other thing I failed to mention is that the non-batonnaged wine in the one-gallon jug is a deep gold color. The five-gallons is not as deep, more straw colored than gold, more like a better chardonnay typically is colored. Seems the process has leached out some of the color through absorption by the yeast remains. However, the sediment in the bottom of both containers is pretty much the same color. maybe the difference in the sediment color will show up more after full clearing.

Right now I am reading a really good book about the 1976 Paris competition ("Judgement Of Paris" by George Tabor), where Stag Leaps' Cab and Chateau Montelena's Chardonnay beat out the French. This factual book goes into great detail about the players at both wineries and carries their lives back many years prior to the competition. (Just a super book for wine lovers; really inspiring.) It specifically says the 1973 chardonnay was aged in oak barrels for many months but it DID NOT go through MLF. I was surprised about no MLF.

 

[ibglowin]

Good info Richard!
And totally agree about "Judgement of Paris". You should have read that before your trip to Napa! I wish Napa could go back to that magic time period. I think WA state is in that time period right now which is why I buy almost 100% of anything commercial from there these days.
Highly recommended read!

 

[robie]

Good info Richard!
And totally agree about "Judgement of Paris". You should have read that before your trip to Napa! I wish Napa could go back to that magic time period. I think WA state is in that time period right now which is why I buy almost 100% of anything commercial from there these days.
Highly recommended read!

Yes, had I read it before, I would have been better able to relate in Napa. As I read the book, I find myself wishing I had known about those wineries, so I could have visited them. That's OK, we go to some wine country around California every Spring Break, so we will get our chance. (The wife's sons both live nearby.

I keep hearing about the wineries in the Santa Cruz Mountains. My wife's son lives in Santa Cruz, so I have been to several of the wineries there, just not to the specific ones which had wines in the Paris contest. There is a tasting room in Santa Cruz that carries wines from all of them. I found that from winery to winery, all the like wines, even across different varietals, had the same underlying taste. Unfortunately, it was a taste for which I didn't care at all. I didn't taste a single wine I thought was worth $10.

In August I attended a wedding in those mountains and was served a Pinot Noir from there. I couldn't even finish the glass I was served. I am no wine snob, but honestly, I have tasted better box wine.

Speaking of snobbery, I know what you mean about southern Sonoma County and all of Napa Valley. That's why I don't go there much anymore. They really think they have arrived. Northern Sonoma, Mendocino and Lake Counties are still good places to visit.

 

[robie]

The five gallons of surlie/batonnaged wine is already very clear after only a week or so after adding the fining agent.

I have a friend who also likes Chardonnay. After a couples game of Hand And Foot (that's a card game!), we went down to the basement and tasted both the five gallons of lees-aged and stirred, and the one gallon of just lees aged. She liked both very well. We both could tell the difference between the two. Both were softer (smoother) and fruitier than I had guessed they would be. They both were very nice, still a little green on the tongue from youth, though. I don't think either will be ready to drink for another 6 to 12 months in the bottle. I will adjust the SO2, filter, and bottle them some time over the next couple of months.

The characteristics of the surlies/batonnage process is present, just not as prevalent as it would be had I continued it for a year (or two) rather than the 3 months, which I did this time. Nice thing about this process is one can control just how much of that taste is present by varying the time.

One thing I can't measure about either of these two sub-batches of wine is the effect barrel fermentation had on them. This is the only time I have ever done a barrel fermentation. I have never made a Chardonnay before.

I am glad I did this experiment and I am pleased with the results. I think it would be fun to enter a bottle of each of the two sub-batches in the big Wine Maker's Magazine wine contest next year. One never knows how it might be perceived. Naturally, not everyone will like the taste lees aging and stirring brings to the Chardonnay.

Next Chardonnay I make, I definitely will do surlies and batonnage. I am thinking seriously about the MM Meglioli Chardonnay for next time or maybe a Brehm frozen grape Chardonnay, as I really want to make an extra special Chard one day. (I must have a little Mike Grgich in me.)