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stickman

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The winemaking information is very good, some details are being held out, but more is provided than what I typically see. Good find.
 

Boatboy24

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Loved reading those notes. I was struck by the fact that those wines all spend about a month total on the skins, yet he seems to be somewhat judicious with his cap management, racking and punchdowns. I guess a slower, gentler extraction is where its at.
 

Johnd

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Loved reading those notes. I was struck by the fact that those wines all spend about a month total on the skins, yet he seems to be somewhat judicious with his cap management, racking and punchdowns. I guess a slower, gentler extraction is where its at.
The hard part there, is can you taste grapes, juice and developing wine, discern the balance of tannins and body, know when tannins will be harsh or smooth, or when you need more extraction for the finished product, or it's light in the mid palate, etc., and adjust your process accordingly to produce the best that particular grape/harvest has to give. I humbly bow my head and say, "NO, I cannot". I seriously doubt that I have the taste buds and nose for it, and I definitely don't have the experience. Obviously, years of winery experience is a huge benefit, probably under the guidance of some old sages along the way, lots of different grape types, harvest conditions, plenty of tasting wines and saying "we should have done XXXXXX during fermentation" situations. I really like reading that information a lot.
 

Floandgary

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Well!! "ENOLOGY" sure has a Chemistry ring to it after all... Glad to see the progression from the heart of the Finger Lakes to the burgeoning industry in WA. Keuka Lake wineries are still my fav's despite the explosive growth throughout the region.. Good luck and happy harvesting to Maloney wines!!
 

ibglowin

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Interesting story. Crazy high pH and low TA's. I wonder how he is doing sales wise. $65 is not a cheap bottle of wine to most folks. I did find a review on WS for one of his wines. Jumping around from vineyard to vineyard each year might make for a different wine each year but it also makes it harder for a small winemaker to get good fruit on a consistent basis year after year. You basically are at the "end of the line" each year as far as getting fruit.

Thought our forum members favoring the northern wines would like this. Really a pretty cool story and concept for a one man show. Check out the wines and the winemaking notes as well, there's learning here too.

Enjoy @ibglowin !!

http://www.maloneywine.com/our-story/
Screen Shot 2017-04-07 at 7.31.06 AM.png
 

Boatboy24

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...plenty of tasting wines and saying "we should have done XXXXXX during fermentation" situations. I really like reading that information a lot.
Yep. His notes were a harsh reminder that I need to take better ones. Though my process is largely the same for all batches, it would help me down the road if I noted things like tannins being too strong, etc and what I might do about that.
 

stickman

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It looks like he tends to be cautious about oxygen contact during primary fermentation, but that may be because he knows his grapes. Even though the pH's are high, I noted the TA's rise between the harvest and post fermentation analysis, so he must be adding some acid with a light touch.
 

Johny99

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Interesting story. Crazy high pH and low TA's. I wonder how he is doing sales wise. $65 is not a cheap bottle of wine to most folks. I did find a review on WS for one of his wines. Jumping around from vineyard to vineyard each year might make for a different wine each year but it also makes it harder for a small winemaker to get good fruit on a consistent basis year after year. You basically are at the "end of the line" each year as far as getting fruit.
I suspect with his association with the Milbrandts, his options and priority for good grapes is way better than most, say mine:(. If he can get a name for great wines that showcase vineyards, I wonder if that will have growers coming to him. He has some very good vineyards so far.
 

Johnd

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It looks like he tends to be cautious about oxygen contact during primary fermentation, but that may be because he knows his grapes. Even though the pH's are high, I noted the TA's rise between the harvest and post fermentation analysis, so he must be adding some acid with a light touch.
I noticed the same, wondered if perhaps his testing at harvest was a bit off since he's destemming but not crushing, so his sample isn't representative of the whole batch.
It was also pretty cool to see him use some of the yeasts that we also use, I recall BM4x4, for one.........
 

skeenatron

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Interesting so what is the resulting flavor profile, and how do you stabilize?
Well typically any fruit that comes in with a high pH like that we adicify, sometimes before primary and sometimes after both primary and secondary. Since we never pick reds below 25 brix, we see this a lot. We do however leave some wines around the pH 4.0 range though. They tend to be very easy to drink. Very soft, very rich in flavor, dark fruit characteristics dominate, zero vegetal character but also they tend to lack the mouth watering acidic tang I tend to enjoy in some wines.

The biggest factor though is the brix. At that pH, you probably have high brix. Like 26-30 brix. So alcohol is an issue. You either water back and get those brix down, or leave it and have a 16% alcohol. We do slight waterback as to not dilute the flavor, but the alcohol still stays up there in the 15s.

As far as stability goes on those wines, we keep our molecular SO2 as high as we can within reason during aging. It's hard to get to 0.5 or 0.8 ppm molecular so2 though, that takes a lot of sulfur at pH 4.0. Top the barrels regularly. We keep our barrels insanely clean, our equipment clean. The barrel room that we age in is cold which important. 54F max. Then finish off with sterile cross flow filtering a few days before we bottle it. Bam, stabile pH 4.0 wine.
 

Boatboy24

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Well typically any fruit that comes in with a high pH like that we adicify, sometimes before primary and sometimes after both primary and secondary. Since we never pick reds below 25 brix, we see this a lot. We do however leave some wines around the pH 4.0 range though. They tend to be very easy to drink. Very soft, very rich in flavor, dark fruit characteristics dominate, zero vegetal character but also they tend to lack the mouth watering acidic tang I tend to enjoy in some wines.

The biggest factor though is the brix. At that pH, you probably have high brix. Like 26-30 brix. So alcohol is an issue. You either water back and get those brix down, or leave it and have a 16% alcohol. We do slight waterback as to not dilute the flavor, but the alcohol still stays up there in the 15s.

As far as stability goes on those wines, we keep our molecular SO2 as high as we can within reason during aging. It's hard to get to 0.5 or 0.8 ppm molecular so2 though, that takes a lot of sulfur at pH 4.0. Top the barrels regularly. We keep our barrels insanely clean, our equipment clean. The barrel room that we age in is cold which important. 54F max. Then finish off with sterile cross flow filtering a few days before we bottle it. Bam, stabile pH 4.0 wine.
Ever harvest earlier for hopefully lower brix and pH?
 

skeenatron

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Not so early that we sacrifice flavor. Never before 25 brix. Picking at 25 brix used to be pretty taboo but now it's very much the standard for ultra premium here in WA.
 

stickman

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I see on the 2015 Phinny Hill that the post ML analysis Jan 2016 shows the VA at .58g/L, which is ok, but is on the high side, and if this wine is expected to be in barrel until Aug 2017, the VA may be pushing the edge of detectability by that time. Probably the new French barrels combined with extended lees contact as well as low acidity and high pH, provide the structure to tie in all of the components in harmony. Once again, there are no absolute answers in winemaking, there is more than one way to make wine, and if you make something desirable in the end, that's all that counts.
 

skeenatron

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Agreed that's a bit high to start out. Going to need to keep on those barrels real well for the next year and a half to avoid letting that get into the 0.7s and 0.8s.
 
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