WineXpert Anyone know for sure???

[Tnuscan]

Dave...i think if you can smell and taste the yeast, there is yeast in the wine. I would add a lot more carboy time and racking. Kits want you to push through, getter done, and order another kit. My time line is much longer than their time line and I don't get that taste or smell. Just a thought.

From what I am understanding there must not be many people that are affected by it. For a while I thought it might be malic. I have made wine from fruits that have high amounts of malic and they don't have it in them. I have kits that are bulk aging with only k-meta added (no sorbate or finning agents) letting them clear on their own. They are at the 3 month racking this month and have the smell/taste issue in them. It may clear out in 3 to 9 months, time will tell.

I know when I am blindfolded I can detect whether it is a kit wine or not by smell only or taste only. I could be wrong with the understanding I have at the moment, with the additives in the making of the juice and the combination of the yeasts, however I feel this has to be what is making this have this affect.

I will lay this to rest until the next 3 month racking and update then. Unless I have a major break through. lol

 

[Noontime]

I'm with others who have suggested letting it age longer, both in carboy (to get a few rackings in) as well as at least a year in the bottle. We've come to realize we enjoy the wines we make SOOOO much more when we let them age a year or 2. Most of the kit wines we've made over the years have been fairly mediocre the first year and might have some weird flavors or notes. But then it integrates and becomes something really different after 2 or 3 years, compared to what it was at 6 months.

Reading this thread made me realize how difficult it is to communicate taste and flavor...it's like trying to tell someone what a color looks like.

 

[globalnavigator]

I know what you mean

From what I am understanding there must not be many people that are affected by it. For a while I thought it might be malic. I have made wine from fruits that have high amounts of malic and they don't have it in them. I have kits that are bulk aging with only k-meta added (no sorbate or finning agents) letting them clear on their own. They are at the 3 month racking this month and have the smell/taste issue in them. It may clear out in 3 to 9 months, time will tell.

I know when I am blindfolded I can detect whether it is a kit wine or not by smell only or taste only. I could be wrong with the understanding I have at the moment, with the additives in the making of the juice and the combination of the yeasts, however I feel this has to be what is making this have this affect.

I will lay this to rest until the next 3 month racking and update then. Unless I have a major break through. lol

Dave,

I'm new to home wine making, my first kit bottled last September. I also notice the same taste element in all the (red) wines I've made so far. I don't taste anything similar in any commercial wine I've ever had. I understand that I shouldn't expect much without aging, etc, etc, but the one thing I've noticed is that if I open a bottle, and then let it sit for a day or two in a covered carafe, I like the taste better. The taste element lessens greatly, and I can actually taste the difference in varietals better. Perhaps you want to give it a try.

-Steve

 

[Tnuscan]

Dave,

I'm new to home wine making, my first kit bottled last September. I also notice the same taste element in all the (red) wines I've made so far. I don't taste anything similar in any commercial wine I've ever had. I understand that I shouldn't expect much without aging, etc, etc, but the one thing I've noticed is that if I open a bottle, and then let it sit for a day or two in a covered carafe, I like the taste better. The taste element lessens greatly, and I can actually taste the difference in varietals better. Perhaps you want to give it a try.

-Steve

Thanks for the advice!

I have tried decanting, I guess I have a very discriminating palate with kits.

 

[Spikedlemon]

Dave,

I'm new to home wine making, my first kit bottled last September. I also notice the same taste element in all the (red) wines I've made so far. I don't taste anything similar in any commercial wine I've ever had. I understand that I shouldn't expect much without aging, etc, etc, but the one thing I've noticed is that if I open a bottle, and then let it sit for a day or two in a covered carafe, I like the taste better. The taste element lessens greatly, and I can actually taste the difference in varietals better. Perhaps you want to give it a try.

-Steve

I have found that, for my kit wines, that they improve the second day over the first. But I think my issue may be more CO2 than 'kit taste'.

 

[Noontime]

That's so funny...I'm the exact opposite! My kit wines I tend to enjoy more the first day, and if they last a second (which is pretty unusual around here), I find they are much harsher the next day and not as enjoyable. It's so funny how everyone tastes a different wine. My wife and I will be enjoying a wine and both of us are tasting something completely different...I find that fascinating.

 

[geek]

I'm with Noontime. All my kit wines tend to go south the 2nd day once the bottle is open.

 

[Tnuscan]

That's so funny...I'm the exact opposite! My kit wines I tend to enjoy more the first day, and if they last a second (which is pretty unusual around here), I find they are much harsher the next day and not as enjoyable. It's so funny how everyone tastes a different wine. My wife and I will be enjoying a wine and both of us are tasting something completely different...I find that fascinating.

I'm with Noontime. All my kit wines tend to go south the 2nd day once the bottle is open.

Same way here, the second day I have poured out much wine because of the off flavors.

I have found putting it under vacuum, I can still drink it the next day. Although It's usually not as good as fresh.

 

[Tnuscan]

I have found that, for my kit wines, that they improve the second day over the first. But I think my issue may be more CO2 than 'kit taste'.

CO2 is the culprit in a lot of cases. I wish it were my issue, that would be an easy fix.

It has something to do with sodium or other agents being used during the process of the wine kit. I found out this week how they pasteurize, so it's not that.

 

[marathon]

investigation

i am very interested in any further experimentation you conduct as I am going to do a gradual elimination fermentation process myself.

Change water, try also grape juice from fresh pressed packaged ( not Welsh's), as well as fresh own grapes ( which do not have that flavour as already tested) change yeast and change to K-met from Na-met. After that what else can be changed? I have had a discussion with a kit importer who remembers that the same grape concentrate process is still the same from the 70's, but now you can get varietals, rather than a generic grape concentrate. He does not see how this slightly strange taste can be, but all my kits exhibit the same slightly strange flavour, that is not the same as any commercial wine flavour despite never adding any enclosed additives from the kit.
The yeast change is an interesting experiment. I cannot get red star, but have used Lalvin. Time for something else

He has now passed me on to the exporter of the kits, to discusss further.
I will update in the future if I find anything of interest.

 

[Tnuscan]

i am very interested in any further experimentation you conduct as I am going to do a gradual elimination fermentation process myself.

Change water, try also grape juice from fresh pressed packaged ( not Welsh's), as well as fresh own grapes ( which do not have that flavour as already tested) change yeast and change to K-met from Na-met. After that what else can be changed? I have had a discussion with a kit importer who remembers that the same grape concentrate process is still the same from the 70's, but now you can get varietals, rather than a generic grape concentrate. He does not see how this slightly strange taste can be, but all my kits exhibit the same slightly strange flavour, that is not the same as any commercial wine flavour despite never adding any enclosed additives from the kit.
The yeast change is an interesting experiment. I cannot get red star, but have used Lalvin. Time for something else

He has now passed me on to the exporter of the kits, to discusss further.
I will update in the future if I find anything of interest.

Hi!

Good to hear from you.

My tests have included dropping everything except bentonite, and K-meta. Even if I dropped the bentonite it would not matter, they use bentonite in the processing of the kits. And K-meta is needed, and I know it is not the culprit. And SMS does impart a flavor I don't prefer. (But that's just my taste). And, this smell/taste is only in the box kits.

It is not in concentrates from the food store, not in homemade fruit wines. It is not even in the 1 gallon Base concentrates like Vintners 128oz Plum, Blackberry, Elderberry etc. And these are pasteurized using the -- "High heat and quick cool" -- method used in most pasteurization techniques/processes these companies use.

I have been on the phone with folks at Winexpert many times during my testing/s of this issue . I actually missed a call last week, and will make a return call this week.

In the beginning of their process they use vacuum concentrators that lower the pressure inside the tank so it can be boiled at a temp of 120 deg F. The lower temperatures this is boiled at turns the water into vapor and leaves behind concentrated grape juice. Some compounds (aroma) etc. are carried away in this vapor. They use a distillation (component ?) connected to the concentrator to recapture these and return them to the concentrate/juice.

The concentrates move from this process to the blending and balancing process and then to the Pasteurization machine.

It is from the time of using the vacuum concentrator to just before the Pasteurization machine that the smell/ taste issue occurs. (Thinking out loud) And this only affects a small amount of people because apparently I'm the only one to come to them with this issue...?.

So I will try to return the call I missed and see where we are. I'm realizing that I would have to be at the processing facility during the actual process to maybe find the exact area the issue arises, and I don't see this happening.

At least I'm a lot closer than I was months back. So even though the Packets in the kits can and will impart their own flavors and smells they are not what's causing my aggravation/issue, that I can tolerate to an extent. But is the reason I can't enjoy the kits like most everyone else. And that's ok, I can purchase the grapes and make my own with no issues, I enjoy making wines as much as I like drinking them....well...almost as much.

If new information is attained I will definitely post and if anyone else does please do the same. It is hard to describe the smell/taste, it is actually like describing a color like someone posted.( I think it was "Noontime").

Cheers!!!

 

[marathon]

I do not think you are by any means unique. They do taste differently to myself and my wife. there is something! We must not let any grapeskin be unturned in pursuit of this, as you say particular characteristic.

 

[Tetrarch]

Have you tried using enzymes? I have used a multi aroma enzyme that is showing promising results. I suspect that the concentrating process creates unfermentable sugars which results in that characteristic aroma/taste.

 

[marathon]

Hi. Can you kindly explain how and why and the effects. Sounds very interesting

 

[Tnuscan]

Have you tried using enzymes? I have used a multi aroma enzyme that is showing promising results. I suspect that the concentrating process creates unfermentable sugars which results in that characteristic aroma/taste.

Hello.

No. I have used Pectic in the fruit winemaking process. I am interested in your process and results, if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks!

 

[Tetrarch]

I have used an aroma enzyme containing arabinase, pectinase and beta-glycosidase, on a Winexpert VR Cab Sauv, it has just gone to carboy storage for a few months and there is a noticable difference in aroma compared to previous brews of the same kit.
The Eclipse range that contain grape packs have pectinase included in the ingredients.

 

[globalnavigator]

Tnuscan - I just opened some bottles of RJS Tjungu (only 3 months in the bottle) over the last week on vacation with family - no kit taste for me! Bizarre. Just some more info that may help you on your quest.

 

[marathon]

Info only.
Just made some pressed pure fresh red grape (Spanish), 'not from concentrate' purchased at Asda (walmart). SG 1.085-90. Used ec1118 and rc212 lalvin on two 5 litre batches. Added 1 cup of brewed tea bag tannin only. No water etc added, just total grape juice.
Fermented completely and it cleared extremely quickly. Medium red in colour. tasted immediately just like any normal just fermented red wine.
No kit taste. Added k-meta. still tasted the same.
Conclusion. Maybe they do something to kit concentrates.

next step I am going to mix 50/50 a kit and the pressed grape juice with spring water( just in case tap water is the culprit) and ferment to see what happens.

 

[LindaLou]

I just finished reading every word in this thread because I'm in the middle of my third kit wine and feeling discouraged with the taste of my first two (although, they are very very young in bottle). Got to the last entry and gasped like I'd just finished a book with no conclusion! I was sure you guys would have figured it out before I caught up!

I'm following this thread to the end because a) I'm loving the adventure of making kit wines and b) I'm not loving that kitwinetaste and c) I'm convinced there's a solution

 

[marathon]

WE are getting there hopefully. I have now confirmed to myself that any fresh pressed juice is ok as it does not contain any preservatives. essentially the same as kit juice but the kit juice has been altered and tweaked.
I have already ditched campden tablets as they all have Na rather than K. I now stick to K-meta

step2
as above 50/50 kit and pressed juice with spring water+ kit with just spring water. to test if my clorinated tap water is the problem. I never use bentonite, sorbate or other wine finings.
After that I will have eliminated all variations and can then come to a reasonable conclusion.