Albumen and poly axel for Pinot gris

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

Maheesh

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
56
Reaction score
11
This year I’m going to fine my Pinot Gris pre fermentation with albumen bentonite and polycacel, ala morewinemaking.com. I’m unclear on whether to add right from the press, or let the gross Lee’s settle over night, then add. I also need to figure out how long to let it settle….from what I see, some wineries let the bentonite work for 4-7 days before racking…anyone? Thx
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
1,121
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
Reduce astringency and remove pink color
My comment will not help with your question.

But....

Those are often a product of the grapes Terroir. Oregon Pinot gris, for example, often has a copper-pink color. I quite like that color myself. And a bright and acidic Pinot gris can be quite nice once one learns how to appreciate it (i.e. back sweetening is really mostly only an American thing). One can make wine any way they want, but the option is always there to embrace the Terroir rather than try to fight correct it to match commercial "norms". Especially if one has a vineyard. All IMHO of course....
 

Maheesh

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
56
Reaction score
11
Yes balaton, my vineyard is in Oregon. I could live with the color, but it’s really too astringent .
 

Rice_Guy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,035
Reaction score
1,988
Location
Food Industry - - Retired
It seems that astringent flavors are attributed to short chain tannins, ,, and by definition tannin is a class of compounds which will bind to protein, ,, ,, and the traditional way to strip tannin is to fine with egg white, ,, and albumen is a salt soluble family of protein found in egg and blood.

astringent should be fixable, ,, to the OP, with a goal of stripping tannin I would add a soluble protein and after reacting with the tannin treat with bentonite to compact the lees.
also investigate gelatin as a protein
 
Last edited:

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
1,121
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
Yes balaton, my vineyard is in Oregon. I could live with the color, but it’s really too astringent .
How old are your vines, and what were your numbers for pH, TA and Brix at last harvest?

I ask because Pinot gris young vines can be a bit more "astringent" than older mature vines and even if your numbers appear in balance, a bit more hang time, even if the numbers go out of balance, may be to consider and can do a lot to fix later issues in the wine (even with tannins). A lot of wine making can occur in the vineyard rather than the cellar. My youngest Pinot gris vines are now entering their 8th year and are just now beginning to settle down to what my decades old vines are producing.

But of course, in the end, one must do what one must do to create the wine they like. I would recommend the more subtle solution offered by @Rice_Guy as a means to correct this in the wine in the cellar.
 

Maheesh

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
56
Reaction score
11
Vines are about 7 years. Last ph was 3.12, Brix 24. Albumax is what more wine is calling their calcium bentonite, and is used in conjunction with, at their suggestion, polycacel, which used to be called polylact.
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
1,121
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
Last ph was 3.12, Brix 24.
Using that pH squared times Brix that is 233. Some would consider that is a white wine a bit out of balance (ideal value is 200). If you can get a TA reading as well, then you can also compare that to an "ideal" Brix:TA ratio of between 30:1 - 35:1 as a secondary measure as when to harvest.

That is, the first thing I would try is to get your harvest numbers more into balance, and work from there. Out of balanced wines can have all sorts of issues. And a well balanced Pinot gris can have a pH at harvest even below 3 (especially found in some parts of Italy). And this is a white wine, and so a high Brix like 24 is not necessarily ideal, or desirable.

Hope this helps.
 

TurkeyHollow

Turkey Hollow Winery
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
38
Reaction score
48
Location
North Smithfield, RI
Using that pH squared times Brix that is 233. Some would consider that is a white wine a bit out of balance (ideal value is 200). If you can get a TA reading as well, then you can also compare that to an "ideal" Brix:TA ratio of between 30:1 - 35:1 as a secondary measure as when to harvest.

That is, the first thing I would try is to get your harvest numbers more into balance, and work from there. Out of balanced wines can have all sorts of issues. And a well balanced Pinot gris can have a pH at harvest even below 3 (especially found in some parts of Italy). And this is a white wine, and so a high Brix like 24 is not necessarily ideal, or desirable.

Hope this helps.
Where can I read more about this formula? Does it vary with varieties or even reds or whites? If 200 is an ideal balance, what is an exceptable deviation?
 

balatonwine

The Verecund Vigneron
Joined
May 9, 2017
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
1,121
Location
Badacsony wine region. Hungary
Where can I read more about this formula?
See




Does it vary with varieties or even reds or whites?
The pH squared method varies generically with reds and white. Whites ideal is 200, red ideal is 260.

Also see:


If 200 is an ideal balance, what is an exceptable deviation?
Ah... that is the art of wine making. Local conditions where the grapes are grown can nudge numbers around a bit. So you want to look at the vines. To see when the seeds turn brown, when the stems turn brown etc. etc. etc. to help also decide when to harvest. Ideally, the grapes are being grown in an area where all things add up correctly more than not. But often grapes are planted in areas that are not ideal for prefect ripening, so there will be some compromises. And one must learn how to balance the compromises. One must (pun not intended) learn this after many years how to best handle their grapes. If it helps, I have been doing it for 20 years, and am still figuring it out.
 

TurkeyHollow

Turkey Hollow Winery
Joined
Oct 7, 2018
Messages
38
Reaction score
48
Location
North Smithfield, RI
Slowly getting closer with the wine-making part but the manipulation of nature thing (timing, pests, mildew, etc.) are driving me to ... well... you get the picture. Thanks for the links!
 
Top