AIO Headspace Eliminator

[jsbeckton]

Are there many people using these? I was using them to store some top up wine and noticed that although there is clearly a good seal on the jug that the wine seems oxidized. This has now happened 2x so losing confidence in storing wine with these for any length of time.

In this case, the jugs were 1/2gal growlers filled about 1/2- 3/4 with wine for about 6 months. As mentioned, the seal never broke and when I put them on I let the pump run for about 15s after the bulb collapsed to try and get all the air out.

Just wondering if others are having better luck or if there is something that I may be doing wrong.

 

[cmason1957]

I use them, but for a much shorter period of time and generally with a fuller amount. No matter what you do there is oxygen still present.

 

[NorCal]

I use as a one way valve under vacuum on a partially filled carboy as a stop gap measure, not as an end solution. When I am using, I “top up” the vacuum ever few days, because you are not going to get a perfect seal.

 

[Ajmassa]

I’ll use them to hold me over for a while on growlers like you, but not long term. A month. Maybe 2 tops. And pulling out the air again every couple weeks like @NorCal said.

also keep in mind those bulbs aren’t full proof. When compressed like that over time they can get stuck & mislead you to think a strong vacuum remains. I no longer use the bulbs- just the one way valve, and try to remember to ‘top up’ the vacuum every so often.

 

[Rice_Guy]

also keep in mind those bulbs aren’t full proof. When compressed like that over time they can get stuck & mislead you to think a strong vacuum remains. I no longer use the bulbs- just the one way valve, and try to remember to ‘top up’ the vacuum every so often.

the directions mention short term storage and I also wound up pulling the bulb off

 

[jsbeckton]

I don’t rely on the bulb except for visual if initial collapse so I know a vacuum has formed. However, as mentioned, I believe that the seal was good because there was significant suction even after 6 months so I am having a hard time believing that air got in over time. My concern is that there was a substantial amount of air in there to start even after pulling as strong a vacuum the pump can.
This is making me question not only the headspace eliminator but also the fact that the design has changed to spay wine along the inside of the carboy rather than down a racking cane directly to the bottom during racking. If there is still air in there during this process that can’t be good. Anyone have similar concerns or no?

 

[dralarms]

You need to check once a week and vacuum every 4 to 5 days. I have used them up to 6 months, I’ve experienced no problems using them as long as you check them periodically.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I have tested it on a vacuum flask with a vacuum gauge, I could not get it to maintain a vacuum. As far as substantial oxygen: , , , P x V = n x R x T , ,
, , pressure times volume equals number of atoms times constant times temperature , ,
the quantity of gas is a straight line function of how much vacuum, if you pull 0.05 atmosphere vacuum and the bulb stayed sucked in till 0.85 atmosphere (5 inches Hg) you have let most of it back in before your ”yes/no” testing indicator changed position.

I don’t rely on the bulb except for visual if initial collapse so I know a vacuum has formed. However, as mentioned, I believe that the seal was good because there was significant suction even after 6 months so I am having a hard time believing that air got in over time. My concern is that there was a substantial amount of air in there to start even after pulling as strong a vacuum the pump can.
This is making me question not only the headspace eliminator but also the fact that the design has changed to spay wine along the inside of the carboy rather than down a racking cane directly to the bottom during racking. If there is still air in there during this process that can’t be good. Anyone have similar concerns or no?

As far as racking, I throttle at roughly 5 inches Hg since I don’t want it to be too violent. 22 inches has lots of umph.

 

[jsbeckton]

Not sure about your test but on the website they say it was tested at 6mo with no loss of vacuum.

So, if that is true, and in my experience it seems to have been the case, what is the purpose of pulling a vacuum every 4-5 days if the original vacuum is still in effect?

The only logical conclusion that I can come up with is that there is still enough air in the headspace to oxidize your wine so you have only dampened the problem rather than removed a problem. I don’t think I’d trust this for more than a few weeks going forward and now am really questioning the process of splash racking under this vacuum so the new design might not be as effective as the old one with 2 racking canes.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I have to admit that I sin
I like data sets that make pretty X Y graphs, so I measure as if I run (ran) a research lab.

 

[cmason1957]

SNIP....
and now am really questioning the process of splash racking under this vacuum so the new design might not be as effective as the old one with 2 racking canes.

I don't remember where I read about this, but it might have been Facebook - Daniel P. did an investigation of the dissolved oxygen in some wine before and after using the All-in-one-wine-pump splash racking to rack the wine. As I recall (and I have slept many times since reading this) he found no appreciable difference in the amount of dissolved oxygen in the wine. I had somewhat the same concerns, but after reading that I "let it go, Let it go" One less thing to worry about. I think the idea behind the splash racking is more to help get the CO2 out, than anything else and if that is true, it makes sense that the wine wouldn't have an uptake of oxygen during racking. But we are well beyond my one semester of College Chemistry to get my degree. And my teacher, if he even remembers me, would probably say way, way, way beyond what I comprehended 30 years ago.

 

[jsbeckton]

Interesting and I wasn’t aware that there was some independent testing done. Well, if that’s the case, I am completely baffled as to how the vacuum that it creates is sufficient for splash racking but not for longer storage (assuming the vacuum isn’t compromised of course).

My chemistry is rusty as well but maybe it’s the exposure time as the racking process is pretty quick. Do you recall by chance is there was also a comparison of the AIO racking vs just regular siphon racking?

To me, if it’s resulting in complete oxygenation after 4-6mo there must also be some after 4-6 weeks so just wondering if I should not count on the headspace eliminator at all anymore.

 

[jsbeckton]

I have to admit that I sin
I like data sets that make pretty X Y graphs, so I measure as if I run (ran) a research lab.

I wonder if you just had a faulty bung or something? Did you also but that extra cover over the check valve? I didn’t measure but if that wasn’t under a significant vacuum I think I should give back my engineering degrees .

 

[pillswoj]

I use my headspace eliminator early in the aging process, as part of degassing. It pulls a lot of CO2 out of the wine ensuring that the headspace is mostly CO2. I typically have to pull a vacuum once a day for about a week before it stays at negative pressure. I will leave it that way for the next 3 months, after that I either downsize the carboy or top up.

 

[sour_grapes]

Well, if that’s the case, I am completely baffled as to how the vacuum that it creates is sufficient for splash racking but not for longer storage (assuming the vacuum isn’t compromised of course).

I think what you are not comprehending is just how much air pressure there is in an atmosphere. It is the equivalent of a column of water about 34' (feet) tall. You only require a vacuum of, to make up a reasonable number, 2' of water (or 6% of an atmosphere) to splash rack. (This would be the rough equivalent of dropping wine from about two feet high.)

So, if you remove 6% of the atmosphere, that obviously implies that you left 94% behind.

Also, you referenced vacuum retention figures on the AIO website. The only figure I see is that the bulb will tell you if the pressure in the carboy is greater than or less than about 2/3 of an atmosphere. (He references 10 inHg gauge pressure. "Gauge pressure" means "amount less than atmosphere." Atmospheric pressure is ~30 inHg, equivalent to 34' water. ) To be fair, he correctly points out that the headspace after pulling a vacuum on an aging wine will be rich in CO2. He incorrectly claims, despite my pointing this out many, many times, that CO2 provides a "blanketing effect." It does not.

 

[jsbeckton]

I think what you are not comprehending is just how much air pressure there is in an atmosphere. It is the equivalent of a column of water about 34' (feet) tall. You only require a vacuum of, to make up a reasonable number, 2' of water (or 6% of an atmosphere) to splash rack. (This would be the rough equivalent of dropping wine from about two feet high.)

Not sure why are you questioning my comprehension...unless you are not comprehending my question. If you read a bit closer you might see that I am questioning the process of splash racking under the 'vacuum' that the the AOI creates. You seem to be agreeing that this vacuum is not removing most of the air so you might as well be splash racking without the vacuum, no?

Also, you referenced vacuum retention figures on the AIO website. The only figure I see is that the bulb will tell you if the pressure in the carboy is greater than or less than about 2/3 of an atmosphere. .

Let me help you. The paragraph under the video says "Trial testing has been successful up to 6 months with no loss of vacuum! "

My main point is that if the vacuum holds and the wine is oxidized after a period of time, then the air left after the initial vacuum was enough to oxidize the wine in the first place. No?

 

[CDrew]

The only trustworthy substitute for topping up at our home level is an inert gas purge and an oxygen tight stopper. But keeping full containers rules. It's low tech and 100% effective. The technology has been around and working for 1000s of years. In ancient times they would float olive oil on the surface of the wine. If you make small amounts of wine, say 5 gallons at a time, it's hard to always have full containers as you rack!

The only logical solution; make more wine.

But the top up problem is a real one. Anyone here use a Corny keg and an inert gas to keep 5 gallons of top up wine ready to go? Thinking that will be my solution next year.

 

[cmason1957]

My main point is that if the vacuum holds and the wine is oxidized after a period of time, then the air left after the initial vacuum was enough to oxidize the wine in the first place. No?

No, I'm not sure I agree with you. Oxidation doesn't happen instantly, but rather takes some time. The time for racking is relatively short (5 maybe 10 minutes). The time it is left with X amount of oxygen present maybe be much longer, I believe 6 months was stated, but even 1 or 3 months might be enough.

Bottom line is a well topped up wine is really the way to go.

 

[jsbeckton]

Anyone here use a Corny keg and an inert gas to keep 5 gallons of top up wine ready to go? Thinking that will be my solution next year.

So I think you might have same problem with ensuring the corny keg is initially void of air. One solution is to fill the keg with sanitizer, push CO2 through to empty the sanitizer, then fill the corny keg directly from another corny keg. Hopefully that makes sense but I can elaborate if needed. Anyhow, as long as you don’t overdo this fill there will be no air at all in the keg.

I’m not really a believer in the “blanket” of CO2 or that there is a really reliable way of ensuring no air is in there other than the displacement method I mentioned above.

 

[jsbeckton]

No, I'm not sure I agree with you. Oxidation doesn't happen instantly, but rather takes some time. The time for racking is relatively short (5 maybe 10 minutes). The time it is left with X amount of oxygen present maybe be much longer, I believe 6 months was stated, but even 1 or 3 months might be enough.

Bottom line is a well topped up wine is really the way to go.

I wasn’t trying to imply that the wine was instantly oxidized, just that the only missing ingredient was time. The oxygen was in there from the beginning and didn’t ingress over time.