Aging: Bulk vs bottle
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Hmmm, I would suspect the other way around (higher O2 exposure I n a carboy than bottle) but I've never tested it. I would suspect that an airlock is not as impervious to oxygen as a cork.
When I tested the free SO2, the rate of SO2 consumption in a barrel was 4X what it was in a glass carboy and a Flex tank was half way in between. I've never measured a bottle. The SO2 consumption in the carboy wasn't insignificant; something that can't be ignored, while in the bottle it is forgotten about.
When I tested the free SO2, the rate of SO2 consumption in a barrel was 4X what it was in a glass carboy and a Flex tank was half way in between. I've never measured a bottle. The SO2 consumption in the carboy wasn't insignificant; something that can't be ignored, while in the bottle it is forgotten about.
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Tim Vandergrift does not recommend bulk aging in carboys. He says get it to drop clear (3 months, maybe for reds) and bottle. He claims that O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork. One thing to say for bulk aging is that it is less likely to get consumed. In a bottle it takes discipline! Or plenty of bottles that are ready.
Floandgary
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Depending on the background of the wine, Some Reds can be dropping particulates for up to a year. If headspace is properly addressed, the overall exposure of a batch (23L on average) to oxygen is much less in a carboy than if bottled.....
I bulk age in carboys, during the aging time is when i put in oak spirals. Another benefit to bulk aging is thah the wine naturally degasses so I don't introduce masive amounts of oxygen using a drill and paint mixer
or using a machine designed to bleed car hydraulic systems.
or using a machine designed to bleed car hydraulic systems.
I bulk age for 6 months in carboys these days. I add 1/4 teaspoon kmeta every three months.
The benefits are that you can eliminate clearing agents since the wine clears itself. It degasses itself, as well. You can taste it and make any necessary adjustments in terms of acid, tannins, or oak. When I bottle wine earlier than six months, I end up with sediment in the bottles.
The benefits are that you can eliminate clearing agents since the wine clears itself. It degasses itself, as well. You can taste it and make any necessary adjustments in terms of acid, tannins, or oak. When I bottle wine earlier than six months, I end up with sediment in the bottles.
If your carboy is properly topped up, the ratio of air to wine is way less in a carboy than in a bottle. Unless you're constantly pulling your stopper out and fooling with your wine, I don't believe that statement is correct.
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I don't believe that statement is correct.
https://winemakermag.com/58-aging-your-kit-wine-kits
Take it up with Tim
https://winemakermag.com/58-aging-your-kit-wine-kits
Take it up with Tim
I wasn't questioning whether or not he wrote it, but whether or not it was correct.
After reading the link you posted (3 times), and please forgive me if I missed it 3 times, but I don't even see where Tim wrote that "O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork".
Perhaps the link is wrong, the author of this article is "WneMaker Staff".
dcbrown73
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Well, lets break this down.
If you have to add k-meta every three months when the wine is in a carboy, but only once in the bottle. Something is amiss here.
If you bottle your wine at 3 months. Say on a a cabernet sauvignon. What should the SO2 ppm be? If it should be maintained say at around 50pp, and you have to keep adding the k-meta at every three months. What should your k-meta be at when you bottle at 3 month, but expect to age for 18 months in the bottle?
If the dose at 3 months was 1/8 or even 1/4 tsp to get you to six months. That would suggest (logically anyhow) that right before you bottle at three months, you would want to dose at least 1 full tsp if not more and that doesn't sound right to me.
If the carboy requires repetitive dosing and bottling does not. I would think the carboy gives more exposure to oxygen. Then on the flip side, exposure to gas per volume of wine would suggest the bottle has more exposure since 750ml with a finger space of air is a lot greater than 1-3 fingers in the top of a carboy at six gallons.
Then again; once a cork is in, you aren't removing it every three months to dose or rack it limiting oxygen exposure.
Also, you have $x ppm of oxygen in the top of the bottle. If you've put enough k-meta in the bottle. All the oxygen molecules should over time should attach themselves to the k-meta and I would think the remaining gas becomes inert. (providing that is how the chemistry works) That is as long as you don't remove the cork.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud.
If you have to add k-meta every three months when the wine is in a carboy, but only once in the bottle. Something is amiss here.
If you bottle your wine at 3 months. Say on a a cabernet sauvignon. What should the SO2 ppm be? If it should be maintained say at around 50pp, and you have to keep adding the k-meta at every three months. What should your k-meta be at when you bottle at 3 month, but expect to age for 18 months in the bottle?
If the dose at 3 months was 1/8 or even 1/4 tsp to get you to six months. That would suggest (logically anyhow) that right before you bottle at three months, you would want to dose at least 1 full tsp if not more and that doesn't sound right to me.
If the carboy requires repetitive dosing and bottling does not. I would think the carboy gives more exposure to oxygen. Then on the flip side, exposure to gas per volume of wine would suggest the bottle has more exposure since 750ml with a finger space of air is a lot greater than 1-3 fingers in the top of a carboy at six gallons.
Then again; once a cork is in, you aren't removing it every three months to dose or rack it limiting oxygen exposure.
Also, you have $x ppm of oxygen in the top of the bottle. If you've put enough k-meta in the bottle. All the oxygen molecules should over time should attach themselves to the k-meta and I would think the remaining gas becomes inert. (providing that is how the chemistry works) That is as long as you don't remove the cork.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud.
Floandgary
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OK,,,, here we go!!! Tim's statement on bottle aging vs. bulk/carboy has nothing to do with oxygen exposure nor is it mentioned. In the commercial arena it is prudent to bottle as soon as the wine is "clear and stabilized". Most wines in the commercial arena are meant to be consumed within 5yrs., so the concept of aging is really not a factor. Tim DOES present the advantages of carboy aging over bottle in certain circumstances. So for the Home Winemakers such as us, We would be hard pressed to determine whether carboy or bottle aging has any edge!!! "PERSONAL PREFERENCE HERE"
but I don't even see where Tim wrote that "O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork".
You are correct this article is from the staff. The Tim V article is not on line anymore for some reason. There is even an earlier thread pertaining to this article on here but the link is broken. The piece entitled "Making your kit wine shine, redeaux" is in my possession as a printed article. I tried to upload a scanned version but the forum rules do not allow something of that size. The best that I can do is to cut and paste the comments.
you could alter this schedule to suit yourself, as long as you got the wine out of the open fermenter and into a carboy in the first week or so, and sulphited and racked it off of the heavy sediment within the first month. Everything else is negotiable. By taking a hands-off approach you let the yeast do what they do best (make the wine for you) and you remove the biggest source of potential problems (unnecessary intervention ! ) from the equation. I don,t recommend much long-term bulk ageing beyond this point: once a wine is fully completed fermentation, clarifying, and-most of the early ageing processes, the best place to put it for long-term storage is in a bottle, under a good cork. The interface seal between the neck of a carboy and the bung is actually really leaky: the oxygen transfer rate is hundreds of times higher than that of a cork. If you want your wine to age gracefully and appropriately, a bottle is the best place for it. Next time: degassing, must and wine analysis, and manipulating your specific gravity. Now where's my copy of Grammatolosy?
. PRINT
http.//winemakermag.com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux?prinrl&tmpl
o...
lllr4l20l4
You are correct this article is from the staff. The Tim V article is not on line anymore for some reason. There is even an earlier thread pertaining to this article on here but the link is broken. The piece entitled "Making your kit wine shine, redeaux" is in my possession as a printed article. I tried to upload a scanned version but the forum rules do not allow something of that size. The best that I can do is to cut and paste the comments.
you could alter this schedule to suit yourself, as long as you got the wine out of the open fermenter and into a carboy in the first week or so, and sulphited and racked it off of the heavy sediment within the first month. Everything else is negotiable. By taking a hands-off approach you let the yeast do what they do best (make the wine for you) and you remove the biggest source of potential problems (unnecessary intervention ! ) from the equation. I don,t recommend much long-term bulk ageing beyond this point: once a wine is fully completed fermentation, clarifying, and-most of the early ageing processes, the best place to put it for long-term storage is in a bottle, under a good cork. The interface seal between the neck of a carboy and the bung is actually really leaky: the oxygen transfer rate is hundreds of times higher than that of a cork. If you want your wine to age gracefully and appropriately, a bottle is the best place for it. Next time: degassing, must and wine analysis, and manipulating your specific gravity. Now where's my copy of Grammatolosy?
http.//winemakermag.com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux?prinrl&tmpl
o... lllr4l20l4
It's all about how the carboy is sealed. A water based airlock is not a good solution for long term aging; too much O2 can pass through to the wine.
A proper cork gives a bottle an excellent seal.
A proper cork gives a bottle an excellent seal.
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I don't think there is a hard pass/fail, right/wrong, yes/no answer to this and falls under personal preference. I hate to interpret other peoples words, but I've read and heard Tim expound on this subject enough times to think I understand his position. As others have said, if the wine is complete and you don't plan on doing anything else to it, the best place for it is in a bottle to age properly. If you want it to degas, add oak, take a nip of it every once in a while to see how it's doing, and/or adjust anything if it's going the wrong way, then obviously bulk aging gives you that ability. Also keep in mind Tim (at the time) was speaking on behalf of a kit manufacturer, where their philosophy on consistency and early consumption relies on adhering to their instructions (which says to get it in the bottle). Daniel Pambianchi (another expert) has wines in carboys for over a decade, but has just recently started bottling recent wines much sooner.
gamble
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Great inputs
From the posted link from Tim V :"There is no magic chemical process that is aided by storing it in a larger volume". So plus and minus from both but no 23L magical powers. ( Next question: I am building a deck, What the best material to use?:
From the posted link from Tim V :"There is no magic chemical process that is aided by storing it in a larger volume". So plus and minus from both but no 23L magical powers. ( Next question: I am building a deck, What the best material to use?:
I did Free SO2 test years ago on 23L Carboys and saw a huge difference between an airlock and a solid stopper in a glass carboy. Solid stoppers were the hands down winners with little to no change over 6-9 months of bulk aging vs an air lock (which breaths basically) and drops almost as fast as a 23L wine barrel.
It is available via the Way Back Machine at: http://web.archive.org/web/20150915....com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux
IMHO,
While aging in a carboy may seem similar to aging in a barrel, there are big differences. The most obvious being that a carboy does not add oak. That can be equalized by adding oak cubes, spirals, etc. Things not as adjustable are: The barrel allows for slow oxidation, and slow evaporation (concentration).
For me, the main benefits of carboy aging are:
1) Takes up less space than 30 bottles
2) Allows wine to naturally clear vs using additives
3) Degasses the wine.
4) You can tweak the wine as it ages - oak, tannin, etc. (but I don't do that).
5) Worry less about cork life - one more year in the carboy is one less year the cork has to last in the bottle.
6) Less worry about cork taint the shorter it is in the bottle.
The main benefit of bottle aging is: You don't have to worry about it (other than the cork).
I do wonder about slow oxidation for aging wine. IMHO, there comes a point in time (1-2 years?) when you want it in the bottle for that reason.
While aging in a carboy may seem similar to aging in a barrel, there are big differences. The most obvious being that a carboy does not add oak. That can be equalized by adding oak cubes, spirals, etc. Things not as adjustable are: The barrel allows for slow oxidation, and slow evaporation (concentration).
For me, the main benefits of carboy aging are:
1) Takes up less space than 30 bottles
2) Allows wine to naturally clear vs using additives
3) Degasses the wine.
4) You can tweak the wine as it ages - oak, tannin, etc. (but I don't do that).
5) Worry less about cork life - one more year in the carboy is one less year the cork has to last in the bottle.
6) Less worry about cork taint the shorter it is in the bottle.
The main benefit of bottle aging is: You don't have to worry about it (other than the cork).
I do wonder about slow oxidation for aging wine. IMHO, there comes a point in time (1-2 years?) when you want it in the bottle for that reason.
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