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Adding body to RJS Chilean Trio

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skyfire322

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I tasted the wine which has been bulk-aging for four months for the first time the other night. It's been aging with 4 oz of bourbon-soaked M+ Hungarian oak cubes. While I get a very slight hint of oak, it tastes like a very diluted Cab Sauv. I did have some issues with fermentation as seen in this thread here so I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

I'm sure with it still being pretty young, that has a role but would adding something like a little Tannin Complex or Opti-Red give it a bit more depth?
 

kuziwk

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Thanks! Is there anything I need to watch out for or check before I add anything?
For tannin there isn't, just go by taste. Add a bit and wait 3 weeks or so before adding more until you guage how much you actually like. It needs time to integrate into the wine. I always add 2 level tsp tannin complex to red kits with skins and 16l premium red kits without skins without hesitation. The cheaper kits get 1TBL cheap tannin into the primary and 1-2 tsp complex while aging. As far as your original post the only way I know that will add body to wine post fermentation is glycerin...this may add a hint of sweetness though so I skip that on all my reds.
 

tradowsk

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My two cents is that glycerin can do wonders for your wine's body. I had a thin merlot where adding a tiny bit (i.e. 1tbsp in a gallon) gave it such an improvement without any noticeable increase in sweetness. Try a drop in a small sample glass and see if you like it, but to me it can make a big improvement.
 

kuziwk

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My two cents is that glycerin can do wonders for your wine's body. I had a thin merlot where adding a tiny bit (i.e. 1tbsp in a gallon) gave it such an improvement without any noticeable increase in sweetness. Try a drop in a small sample glass and see if you like it, but to me it can make a big improvement.
In my experience it does work well but tends to smooth over the acids a bit, for me it can make an otherwise structured wine a bit more flat. I would only see myself adding it to some whites like savingnon blanc or a rose. By all means though if you have a digits scale you can test a sample as mentioned above.
 

skyfire322

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Thanks for all the replies! It does have a bit of that Cab Sauv "sweetness" (final SG was 1.000), but planned on getting some glycerin anyways. Would that have any sort of "adverse" reaction if I added the Tannin Riche and/or Complex?
 

kuziwk

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Thanks for all the replies! It does have a bit of that Cab Sauv "sweetness" (final SG was 1.000), but planned on getting some glycerin anyways. Would that have any sort of "adverse" reaction if I added the Tannin Riche and/or Complex?
SG of 1.0 sounds a little high, typically it should be under 1.0 depending on the yeast you used. You won't have any issues I'm aware of by using tannin complex and glycerin...be careful though as you mentioned your SG is 1.0...glycerin is about 60% as sweet as sugar so you don't want to end up with a wine that tastes sweet when you are looking for dry. It goes without saying aswell that you need to use food grade glycerin. Cab sav sweetness is likely the fruit notes...those will fade and settle in the next 8 months or so.
 

skyfire322

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I used the Assmanshausen yeast. It had been fermenting for ~3 weeks then just stopped at 1.000, which at that point I threw in the towel. I'll give it a try and keep everyone updated!
 

kuziwk

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I used the Assmanshausen yeast. It had been fermenting for ~3 weeks then just stopped at 1.000, which at that point I threw in the towel. I'll give it a try and keep everyone updated!
I've never heard of that yeast, although I'm sure the experts helped you out in the other forum on your fermentation. This is part of the reason im really paranoid with swapping yeast's...fear that it won't ferment below 1.0SG. I don't eat sugar really much at all and opt for stevia so everything tastes very sweet to me that has sugar In it. At any rate I'm curious to see what your results are and everyone has a different taste in wine.
 

cmason1957

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I used the Assmanshausen yeast. It had been fermenting for ~3 weeks then just stopped at 1.000, which at that point I threw in the towel. I'll give it a try and keep everyone updated!
I'm quite a bit surprised that AMH didn't fully ferment your wine. I have used it several times and it quite reliably produces upwards of 15% ABV. Did you bump up the starting SG of the kit or was the place you fermented in somewhat cold?? AMH isn't the best yeast, if the temps are much below 65 F.


I've never heard of that yeast, although I'm sure the experts helped you out in the other forum on your fermentation. This is part of the reason im really paranoid with swapping yeast's...fear that it won't ferment below 1.0SG. I don't eat sugar really much at all and opt for stevia so everything tastes very sweet to me that has sugar In it. At any rate I'm curious to see what your results are and everyone has a different taste in wine.
AMH - Assmanshausen yeast is a very good yeast. I don't recall the varietals in Chilean Trio, Cab Sauv is one. AMH isn't necessarily what I would think of for Cabernet. But don't be afraid to try different yeasts. Two things to keep in mind, if you change the yeast supplied by a kit are 1) the nutrient requirements of a given yeast and 2) the temp range of the yeast. But other than that, no big worries. Almost all of them will ferment 13-14%ABV just fine, some go a bit higher.

Here is the guide I rely on for deciding what I might want to try. https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wyeastpair.pdf

There are several guides available on the web. This is just the one I like.
 

skyfire322

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I'm quite a bit surprised that AMH didn't fully ferment your wine. I have used it several times and it quite reliably produces upwards of 15% ABV. Did you bump up the starting SG of the kit or was the place you fermented in somewhat cold?? AMH isn't the best yeast, if the temps are much below 65 F.
The starting SG was 1.102 out of the box, and was steadily fermenting between 68-71 degrees. RJS support told me 1.102 was 'within spec' but said that AMH was a white wine yeast. Besides the GoFerm and Fermaid-K, I didn't do anything additional, which was the main reason why I was so surprised!

BTW, that yeast pairing guide is usually my go to!
 

mhopkins

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Here is the guide I rely on for deciding what I might want to try. https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wyeastpair.pdf
There are several guides available on the web. This is just the one I like.
@cmason1957 Thanks for posting the link! A quick read of the doc raises a question. First a quote from the guide: "In the end both [ICV-D254 and SYR] are actually great choices for making high quality Syrah, but in this particular scenario it just comes down to choosing whether you want big mouthfeel or violets."

Is there a reason not to use yeasts in combination? The guide does include: "Of course, the way to have your cake and eat it too is to use combinations of yeast and then blend them post fermentation." What about including both during primary fermentation?
 

pillswoj

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@cmason1957 Thanks for posting the link! A quick read of the doc raises a question. First a quote from the guide: "In the end both [ICV-D254 and SYR] are actually great choices for making high quality Syrah, but in this particular scenario it just comes down to choosing whether you want big mouthfeel or violets."

Is there a reason not to use yeasts in combination? The guide does include: "Of course, the way to have your cake and eat it too is to use combinations of yeast and then blend them post fermentation." What about including both during primary fermentation?
Quite often if you blend yeasts, one will be more aggressive and take over the job completely. By doing 2 separate fermentation's with the different yeast and blending after you are sure to get the characteristics of both.
 

cmason1957

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Is there a reason not to use yeasts in combination? The guide does include: "Of course, the way to have your cake and eat it too is to use combinations of yeast and then blend them post fermentation." What about including both during primary fermentation?
As Jeff points out, if you throw both into the same primary ferment one or the other will be dominant, maybe. They may also fight against each other. You also might decide the best tasting blend is with 30% of batch that was fermented with SYR and 70% that was blended with ICV-D254. You have much more control, if you treat them as two separate wines that might get blended at a later date.
 

kuziwk

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As Jeff points out, if you throw both into the same primary ferment one or the other will be dominant, maybe. They may also fight against each other. You also might decide the best tasting blend is with 30% of batch that was fermented with SYR and 70% that was blended with ICV-D254. You have much more control, if you treat them as two separate wines that might get blended at a later date.
I had a similar thread, fermented with RC212 and than got paranoid and pitched EC-1118. Both fermented dry, the vineco passport kit actually came with both yeasts and said to pitch both at the same time. I pitched it maybe four days in. FYI ec-1118 produces a killer protein which will kill the other yeast somewhere in the fermentation stage. I've also heard that when aging wine any difference from the yeast will be long aged out before you are ready to drink it so it makes little difference.
 

joeswine

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Pitching in both yeasts can create a perfect blend of features in a wine.
Taste ,aroma and texture.
Don't be afraid to try .... Learn the charactists of the difference yeasts then look at your wines base and it's profile then Think outside the Box.
 

stickman

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@skyfire322 You might want to revisit your notes on how the yeast was re-hydrated and pitched etc., at least for future reference to help reduce the chances of another stuck fermentation. I've never used AMH yeast, but it does appear to be a bit finicky based on the Lallemand data sheet. A kit usually doesn't start with much microflora unless it was contaminated in some way, so even a finicky yeast shouldn't have a problem finishing. You may have been borderline on inoculation temperature as well as temperature shock parameter, so there may have been some viability lost depending on how quickly the steps were conducted.

They point out a few issues including the relatively long lag phase, indigenous microflora expression, killer factor sensitive, Inoculate must no lower than 18C, temperature changes recommended less than 10C to reduce temperature shock. For a shorter lag time, AMH is one of the few yeasts where there is a recommendation to allow development in 10% of the total must volume for 8 hours before final inoculation.

Also included some information on glycerine. You can add some to taste, but based on this data, most fermentations end up with 6 to 8 grams per liter whether you want it or not.
 

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skyfire322

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You may have been borderline on inoculation temperature as well as temperature shock parameter, so there may have been some viability lost depending on how quickly the steps were conducted.

Also included some information on glycerine. You can add some to taste, but based on this data, most fermentations end up with 6 to 8 grams per liter whether you want it or not.[/USER]
Thanks much for those data sheets! I knew that the AMH had the long lag phase, but I totally forgot to check the specs, lol.
 
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