A,R,L for sake/saki

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Rice_Guy

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one thing to hold in the back of your mind is that five percent alcohol is a barrier that keeps many bacterial families from growing. and second in many foods an off flavor develops if food poisoning toxins have been produced.
 

jburtner

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Amizake is a sweet rice based liquid made from Koji yeast enzyme activity converting the starches to sweet liquid - Very good for use in cooking and pitching yeast to make a rice wine and often consumed sweet as a refreshing drink or perhaps soupy mush depending on whether you strain and clear it or now. My research on Sakes are that they are a little more specific in their production protocols with times and temps but also involve koji to convert the starches and yeast to produce the alcohol plus lactic bacteria for acidity... Shio is a koji "fermented" rice/water product with the addition of lacto to produce a sour liquid for mild marinades and similar... Add some barley, soy, and other koji strains and the rabbit hole gets deeper..

Cheers!
-johann
 

DarrenUK

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one thing to hold in the back of your mind is that five percent alcohol is a barrier that keeps many bacterial families from growing. and second in many foods an off flavor develops if food poisoning toxins have been produced.
Yeah definitely won't be taste testing until the fermentation has finished and alcohol content has been tested. When I do it properly I will hang a cheese cloth in a fermentation bucket with an airlock. Alow the liquid to drip down into the bottom of the bucket. That's the plan anyway. Might be better to keep the rice submerged but will try the cloth method anyway and see what happens.
 

jburtner

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Adding a note that Shio also uses salt to prevent other bacterial activity and allow Koji enzyme and Lacto activity.

Koji, yeast, and a controlled lacto ferment all at low temps (32*F-48*F) contribute to a step feeding of the alcoholic fermentation component which doesn't present the yeast with an overly high osmotic pressure (high sugar) and allows ABV of up to 19-20% - maybe even slightly higher. High osmotic pressure ruptures the yeast walls and contributes to off flavors. The lacto contributes to balancing the alcohol with acidity and any residual sugars or backsweetening. Use of kmeta in sake is not generally encouraged for the most pure experience on the palate and shelf stability is accomplished through pasteurization of the cleared product (or left cloudy depending) or drinking fairly fresh and cool refrigeration to stunt further fermentation activity. Water from various sources may be added to balance ABV in line with the the other flavors...
 

DarrenUK

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Adding a note that Shio also uses salt to prevent other bacterial activity and allow Koji enzyme and Lacto activity.

Koji, yeast, and a controlled lacto ferment all at low temps (32*F-48*F) contribute to a step feeding of the alcoholic fermentation component which doesn't present the yeast with an overly high osmotic pressure (high sugar) and allows ABV of up to 19-20% - maybe even slightly higher. High osmotic pressure ruptures the yeast walls and contributes to off flavors. The lacto contributes to balancing the alcohol with acidity and any residual sugars or backsweetening. Use of kmeta in sake is not generally encouraged for the most pure experience on the palate and shelf stability is accomplished through pasteurization of the cleared product (or left cloudy depending) or drinking fairly fresh and cool refrigeration to stunt further fermentation activity. Water from various sources may be added to balance ABV in line with the the other flavors...
Was going to do a Honjozo (本醸造) style on my main run. Mostly out of lazyness if I'm honest. That way I can at least kill off any nasty bacteria that may possibly be in it. Or at least until I'm more confident that I have a good method. I have the equipment to do it so why not. This time however I'm obviously testing the process of the ARL. I might just get dried koji and yeastballs next time but will see it I actually get some activitie from the rice without yeast added by me. Also table rice isn't exactly preimum sake so I may get some sake specific rice grains and do a test.
 

jburtner

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Nice! I'm a fan of diverse sake style wines!

Some of the Angel yeast products use a rhizopus culture instead of the various aspergillus oryzae koji... I get the feeling that they don't necessarily divulge the exact makeup of the product (same with the yeast-balls) and you can fine tune a bit more exact when you source specific strains.. Then it depends on how you culture them (humidity and temp) for more protease or more amylase leaning growth..

Cheers!
-johann
 

DarrenUK

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It's all trial and error for me at the moment. This is literally the first time I have tried making sake. I know what I want to do but I really need to know what I'm using and how I'm doing it is right first. Would prefer to use a true Japanese method and ingredients but if there is an easy way to get the same results then obviously I will do that instead.
 

DarrenUK

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20210728_174219.jpg20210728_174250.jpg
Just a quick update.... Both very watery now. I think at this point it's clear that there is no natural yeast in ARL.
There is small bubbles forming in the small sample but nothing that would suggest fermentation.
1 more week to see if there is any change but Im not holding my breath.
 

DarrenUK

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Update... 3 1/2 weeks in and the sample without added yeast has started fermentation. Or at least it has visibly started. Smells like the other sample but cleaner, sweet and fragrant.

I will give both samples a good look over Friday evening. Obviously it's taken about 3 weeks to get started on the sample without added yeast so I will keep going to see how long this will take in total. I will also taste both when ready... Hopefully together at the same time but I'm not sure how long I can keep the other sample without it degrading
 

DarrenUK

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OK so it's been 4 weeks.

The experiment was to clear up some confusion I had with making sake/saki/rice wine... What ever you want to call it.

Before I get into the results I want to share some interesting information that might not seem relevant but it really is....
Koji (the mold that converts the starch) isn't actually the name of the mold. Aspergillus Oryzae is the name. The mold is added to damp rice and left in a warm environment for 3 days for it to grow and then dried. This rice with mold on it is then named Koji.
Why is this important.... Well its important because Angel Rice Leaven doesn't have Koji on its ingredients list. But it dose have rice flour (koji rice).
Secondly and most importantly ARL dose definitely have Yeast in the packet. I know that there are some who will disagree but I found a scientific studies on ARL and its content.... And when I say "I found" I actually mean I got sent it by someone smarter than me while I mindlessly go nowhere 😅 click on the link for all the info. Link

So back to my experiment.

I tasted both samples. But first I needed to get the liquid from the solid. 20210805_175044.jpg20210805_175256.jpg20210805_175315.jpg20210805_175802.jpg
This was the sample without added yeast. Easy to drain smells amazing. I was surprised in all honesty but it fermented great.
Next was the added yeast sample. 20210805_175813.jpg20210805_175809.jpg20210805_180640.jpg
Well I made a bigger sample of the one as the advise from people who have done it before was that I needed to add yeast.... It was a nightmare. Sloppy mess that didn't want to strain but I did eventually get a decent amount of liquid. 20210805_180654.jpg
The one on the left had added yeast.
Now after 4 weeks the left sample smelt OK but it had nothing on the one that had no added yeast.
Taste test was interesting. The one with added yeast was terrible. It's possible that I may have over pitched or that it should have been tested 2 weeks in. But it's was so bad it went all in the bin.
The sample that had no added yeast was amazing. 20210805_181736.jpg
Fragrant and fruity. It was so good I drank it all that night.

So experiment results...
Yes ARL has yeast.
It has taken 4 weeks but its really cold in my apartment in the UK. I would recommend a warm start for a few days then place it somewhere cooler.
But for the cold fermentation I got a really surprisingly fruity flavour.
I will now buy a large 4 litre lunchbox or something of that nature and drill a hole for an airlock to do this properly.

For the next experiment I would like to do this again but with one with water added. I'm qurious what differences I will find.

I highly recommend ARL.
 

DarrenUK

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I will add I'm shocked that the ARL sample fermented at all.... I was convinced that it was doing nothing. So don't panic if it looks like nothing is happening.
 

Rice_Guy

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I have learned many times that the ancient ones have wisdom. The mechanical process of extracting a clean liquid is worth a lot.
A. niger is a good source of enzymes, ,,, humm,,, it is worth asking if A. niger also has a pathway which produces alcohol and fruity flavors.
I would need to hunt references, but I think cool is preferred and three weeks/ longer might be considered typical for the better quality saki. Another effect that is gained with slow sugar production is that slow release acts as “step feeding” which will allow a saki to go to 18% ABV / the yeast has time to acclimate, ,,,, starting with 1.140 sugar at the start will stress the yeast and not work as well. Quality saki also goes with a well milled rice (low fat and protein). Grocery rice will have fats which don’t help saki flavor and protein which probably doesn’t help and doesn’t hurt.
I will add I'm shocked that the ARL sample fermented at all.... I was convinced that it was doing nothing. So don't panic if it looks like nothing is happening.
There are a few on this forum who have done kits which give a ninety day product, and then some old timers who aim for a year.
Good photos :try
 
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