1st gallon of raspberry wine in the fermenter

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vinny

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It never crossed my mind to taste. I have always tasted my experiments after fermentation, but I just assumed it would be unpleasantly sweet and yeasty during.

What do you blend with? Store bought wine, other batches you have made?

What do you attribute the acidity to? Naturally present in the berries, or other ingredients in the recipe?
 
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It never crossed my mind to taste. I have always tasted my experiments after fermentation, but I just assumed it would be unpleasantly sweet and yeasty during.
Wine tasted during fermentation and in the months afterward is not going to taste great. However, with experience you can learn what the wines should taste like, and it's good for general education.

What do you blend with? Store bought wine, other batches you have made?
The short answer is "yes".

With wine, you can blend anything you want. It's common to blend grape and fruit wines to produce a off-dry to sweet sipping wine. Different grape wines are blended together to produce more complex and/or interesting wines, and fruit wines can be done similarly. It's a good idea to look at the blends others have tried, before you start experimenting.

This thread lists red wine blends that our members have had success with, to give others ideas.

On a tangent ... when topping up a carboy, it's normal to use a compatible wine, either homemade or commercial, anything that is similar, complimentary, or neutral. The goal is to eliminate headspace.

What do you attribute the acidity to? Naturally present in the berries, or other ingredients in the recipe?
This is another "yes". Some fruits are naturally high in acid (e.g., blueberries), some batches of fruit can be higher or lower than normal. And it's very possible to add too much powdered acid, or things like lemon juice.

Some wines are pleasant with a bit of an acid bite. Others, where the bite is unpleasant, can be moderated with a little bit (or a lot a bit) of backsweetening.
 

VinesnBines

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Red raspberries are supposedly high in acid. Nothing else I used would have contributed to the high acid levels. I actually used calcium carbonate to try to reduce the acidity. It helped. Tartaric acid may help too. I'm still working this out. I may end up bottling and blend later with a low acid wine (mine).

Re: Tasting, I can tell, during, primary fermentation, when the wine is near a certain SG. The most recent batch has had a long slow ferment. I was getting discouraged when it was tasting like grape Nehi, then as the SG started to drop a little faster, the wine got dryer and more tart. I was encouraged just by taste.

Glad you finally chimed in Bryan!
 

vinny

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Alright....

So, it seems the raspberry wine is doing very well. It is extremely active. Tons of CO2 coming out when stirring it up.

It actually tastes quite pleasant. Somewhere between raspberry jam and raspberry soda.The raspberry is VERY pronounced. It is predominantly sweet and the acid/tartness is not really coming through, yet. I am very curious to see how the flavor is going to develop, and how notably raspberry the flavor will be over time.

The starting SG was 1.110, it is now sitting at 1.050 sneaking up on 48 hours after pitching. Bang on 70 degrees.

I appreciate the questions. I likely woulda just let 'er go. This is giving me some good insight and it's promoting the development of good habbits. Notes for example!
 

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hi and welcome to WMT
have you read the threads on the form page, like,, terms, ECT,
Like,,, wine is a must, not a mash,,, looks like you learn very quickly, but the thing most needed in wine crafting is patience,,
i have carboys full of wine going back to 3 years, whites are around a year or just under that, i see some of the top minds have advised you,,
forget quick video's on the internet,, this forum is the top of the line vinters,, and they give knowledge freely,,, there are so many more top
of the line vinters on this forum,, beer, meads, wines, and the more wine you have the easier it is to be patient,, looks to me you've got some great tutors already, and many more will chime in as you proceed,,,
Skoal
Dawg
 

vinny

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hi and welcome to WMT
have you read the threads on the form page, like,, terms, ECT,
Like,,, wine is a must, not a mash,,, looks like you learn very quickly, but the thing most needed in wine crafting is patience,,
i have carboys full of wine going back to 3 years, whites are around a year or just under that, i see some of the top minds have advised you,,
forget quick video's on the internet,, this forum is the top of the line vinters,, and they give knowledge freely,,, there are so many more top
of the line vinters on this forum,, beer, meads, wines, and the more wine you have the easier it is to be patient,, looks to me you've got some great tutors already, and many more will chime in as you proceed,,,
Skoal
Dawg
Thanks!

Honestly, there's a lot to get through, I am reading all I can. Am I the only one that finds it humorous that sugar is a wash, grain/corn is a mash, beer is a wort, and wine/fruit is a must.

An absolute neccessity!

Seems like it is for me anyway. I've got all kinds of intrigue and excitment brewing. What started as a lets see what happens experiment, is quickly becoming a much deeper interest.

I imagine there would be lots of evaporation in a barrel. Is that a concern at all with your three year old carboys, or with an air lock are you only losing volume when racking? How long has it been since you have racked a three year old red. Is it a continuous process, or do you just allow it to bulk age without your involement after a certain period/process?
 
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I have 54 liter barrels (14.25 US gallon) and the angel's share is about 10% per year, so I have to start out with 16 gallons of wine. Carboys don't lose volume as there is no wood to evaporate through, same for stainless steel.

Folks have all types of racking schedules; many folks rack every 3 months during bulk aging. Unless I have gross lees (fruit solids), I don't rack during bulk aging, but do add K-meta every 3 months. Fine lees is yeast hulls, and it's fine to let that stay in. Less racking = less wine loss and less exposure to air.
 

hounddawg

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Thanks!

Honestly, there's a lot to get through, I am reading all I can. Am I the only one that finds it humorous that sugar is a wash, grain/corn is a mash, beer is a wort, and wine/fruit is a must.

An absolute neccessity!

Seems like it is for me anyway. I've got all kinds of intrigue and excitment brewing. What started as a lets see what happens experiment, is quickly becoming a much deeper interest.

I imagine there would be lots of evaporation in a barrel. Is that a concern at all with your three year old carboys, or with an air lock are you only losing volume when racking? How long has it been since you have racked a three year old red. Is it a continuous process, or do you just allow it to bulk age without your involement after a certain period/process?
[/QUO
yes,,,but different terms help with what craft you are doing,
yes, it seems over welming to start with, but you will grow into it , barrels are a detail that i have no fortya into, since i've never used one, , glass as long as you keep your air locks filled you loose nothing, and yes you lose at rackings, when i make wine i always make extra that i keep in gallon,,half gallon,, quarts and pint jars, i use these top off/extra jugs in a 38-400 thread, that way a 6.5 drilled bung will fit them all, i have just under 30#-6 gallon carboys, so i rack off 3 year old reds every year or two, when bulk aging it is pretty much time, now i rack every 3 months adding k-meta to protect from oxidation
to clear and degas my wines, when they are ready (clear & degassed) then i just let them set with a S airlock, a lot on here . use silicone ventless bungs, use of terms and reading a hydrometer are learning threads to help you learn, as well you will see a beginners thread on the front forum page,,, that is the place for beginners to post questions, many of the vinter members , keep a eye on that thread, so the can give help to beginners,, if needed, i can post you links for bottles, carboys and concentrates, you may live where you can just go and buy, i live where i must order everything, ,, if buying new carboys, i would go with premium italian carboys, the are the thickest, and run about $35 each, as long as you buy enough to get the free shipping,, feel free to ask away, depending on budget @vacuumpumpman sells a nice vacuum pump, during fermentation oxygen i s your friend once ferment is over then oxygen is you wines enemy, a triple scale hydrometer will let you know when your
ferment is over, and when to go from a open container for fermenting to a airlocked carboy from that point own, some call this a hobby, it is not,, it is a addiction, when you can make something that tastes good to you is a great feeling ,,,
Dawg
 

hounddawg

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Thanks!

Honestly, there's a lot to get through, I am reading all I can. Am I the only one that finds it humorous that sugar is a wash, grain/corn is a mash, beer is a wort, and wine/fruit is a must.

An absolute neccessity!

Seems like it is for me anyway. I've got all kinds of intrigue and excitment brewing. What started as a lets see what happens experiment, is quickly becoming a much deeper interest.

I imagine there would be lots of evaporation in a barrel. Is that a concern at all with your three year old carboys, or with an air lock are you only losing volume when racking? How long has it been since you have racked a three year old red. Is it a continuous process, or do you just allow it to bulk age without your involvement after a certain period/process?
www.colomafrozen.com www.homebrewohio.com www.packagingoptionsdirect.com between these 3 sites you will find may things from carboy stirrers, carboys, wine bottles, ect
Dawg
 

vinny

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Welll....

Today was day 4. My recipe says roughly day 5 to pull pulp and rack at 1.030. Today I was sitting at 1.010.

So far I have transfered and strained through a mesh bag. I was a little generous with my measureing to leave something to top up when racking. I ended up with 700ml/24oz of extra wine after filling a 1 gallon secondary.

What to do with? Is a 1 liter mason jar going to leave too much headspace. Or is this fine until I stop fermenting? Should I just leave it in the primary for now?

The yeast is still fully susepended and I got very little in the way of sediment.
 

vinny

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It's all starting to come together now that I am able to see the process. I am used to making ferments in a primary and running them to completion. Swapping to a secondary in the middle of the fermentation cleared it all up. It's amazing to see how active it still is in the later processes of fermentation and I see how it could be interpreted or explained as a secondary fermentation.

I have already racked a second time. Only because I wanted the yeast to add to a Skeeter Pee. I let the yeast settle to pull out the colour and bulk of the flavor before adding to the SP today. The amount of clarification 2 days after the second rack is very noticable. I assume racking is also an important part of the patience? Racking will obviously improve clarity every time, but too soon will introduce more oxygen than needed, as well as diminish returns while forgoing the benefits of aging? You can get a drinkable product faster, but not as good a product as patience will produce?

This batch has a prominent raspberry flavor. It is TART! I am interested to see how time and back sweetening affects the flavor profile. My math comes out at 16%, 1.110 to 0.992. I was aiming for 11-13. The alcohol is very strong. Will this noticeably mellow with time? Strong alcohol may not be a concern, I know it is early to make any conclusions, but I will more likely add this to soda water unless something magical happens in a year.

I have not added any K-meta at any stage of this recipe. I now intend to leave it untouched for 6 months. Would it be advisable to add some now? How much per gallon? I have found 1/8 tsp per gallon is reasonable, but PH affects this? I'm at 3.0 but couldn't find a clear answer. Is 1/8 per gallon a safe bet?

Is dark and cool the best bet for bulk aging in all circumstances?
 
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I assume racking is also an important part of the patience? Racking will obviously improve clarity every time, but too soon will introduce more oxygen than needed, as well as diminish returns while forgoing the benefits of aging? You can get a drinkable product faster, but not as good a product as patience will produce?
Yes, no, yes, ???, and no.

Knowing when to rack is part of patience. Racking does NOT improve clarity each time -- racking does not improve clarity, time does (sometimes helped with fining agents). Racking has the potential to introduce O2. I'm not sure what the last part of "diminish returns" means, but frequent racking is diminishing returns. Finally, no, you do not get a drinkable product faster.

I had fun writing that! I can be facetious, do not take that as any impatience with you -- in my case it's a serious personality fault that folks around me have to deal with. You're asking great questions!

Rack as few times as possible, as each time has the potential to introduce contaminants (including O2), and you lose volume. There's always some waste in racking. Once you have racked off the gross lees (fruit solids), there's no solid reason to rack until near bottling. Fine lees (yeast waste) is actually beneficial to the wine. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage".

Wine that is drinkable sooner depends very much upon the ingredients. For red wines, lower ABV helps. More importantly, reduce the tannin levels -- kit wines without skin packs, juice buckets without skin packs, press grapes earlier, little or no aging oak, etc. For non-grape wines, less fruit makes a difference, also lighter fruit. This is an extensive subject, so I'm just hitting highlights.

This batch has a prominent raspberry flavor. It is TART! I am interested to see how time and back sweetening affects the flavor profile.
In general, fruit wines benefit greatly from at least a bit of backsweetening. Make a 2:1 sugar syrup and experiment with 4 oz glasses, using a medicine syringe to add varying amounts of sugar to the wine.

My math comes out at 16%, 1.110 to 0.992. I was aiming for 11-13.
Ok, you goofed, but it's not insurmountable. One option is to produce a similar wine with a lower ABV and blend them. As you mentioned, another is seltzer water or even fruit juice to dilute it by the glass. Time probably won't make it better, so treat it as a personal challenge to determine how many ways you can create solutions. You have me thinking of marinating a brisket for 2 or 3 days in your wine ...

I have not added any K-meta at any stage of this recipe. I now intend to leave it untouched for 6 months. Would it be advisable to add some now?
Unless someone who will drink the wine is allergic to sulfite or highly sensitive to it, there is no reason to not add sulfite, and many reasons to do so. Sulfite is a preservative and anti-oxidant. Free SO2 binds with contaminants (including O2) to render them harmless. IME, no-sulfite wines have a much lesser shelf life.

I add 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5 US gallons at each racking, post-fermentation, and every 3 months during bulk aging. I sometimes check pH using test strips, which provide a ballpark reading, and do not test for SO2. So far I've not seen a compelling reason to fine tune SO2 according to pH, so I don't bother.

Is dark and cool the best bet for bulk aging in all circumstances?
Yes. Wine is negatively affected by light. LED is considered best, from what I've read. Bulk aging cooler is supposed to be better, but do what you can.
 

vinny

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A fine response. Thank you, sir. No fault noted. I have no issues with a succinct reply. I actually appreciate it. Especially with the elaboration that follows. I am glad you are having fun with your reply's. I am getting a lot of info here and having fun with the process, it would not be reciprocal were I to bore or frustrate you.

My yeast is falling out of suspension and the clarity difference after 2 days was what made me think that racking added to the clearing. I suppose it makes sense that racking, likely degassing, agitating, etc. would cause more fine lees (I appreciate the clarification, I actually refrained from using lees over yeast as I was not sure of the exact definition) to come out of suspension. As far as deminish returns, I was just referring to the loss of product during each rack.

Personally I would refrain from drinking a wine with suspended yeast and aim for clarity as a minimum determination of ready or drinkable. I know many are impatient and make kits that are drunk well before maturity, even clarity. I was inferring that racking, and faster clearing would reach "drinkability" sooner. So, thank you. I understand that fining agents will.

Ok, you goofed, but it's not insurmountable. One option is to produce a similar wine with a lower ABV and blend them. As you mentioned, another is seltzer water or even fruit juice to dilute it by the glass. Time probably won't make it better, so treat it as a personal challenge to determine how many ways you can create solutions. You have me thinking of marinating a brisket for 2 or 3 days in your wine ...
Is there any point to age for flavor at this point, or should I just give it a few weeks and have some fun making other drinks? The marinade idea is interesting. Last night I made a braised blade roast with a dark beer with a flavor I couldn't identify. I wasn't pumpkin spice, but there was some cinnamon and something else there that would have made me toss it and dump an a lager in the past, but it was amazing. Cinamon, spice and a little I don't know what, just came through enough to make it unique and delicious. So, Berry wine? Maybe!

I am sensitive to more things than I like. I default to restricting any additives when possible. Previous replies have mentioned that K-meta will dissipate over time. Are sulphites added, sulphites added, or will some time allow them to nutralize with the removal of contaminants? It doesn't sound like much more than a pinch would be necessary if you use 1/4 tsp for 5 times my batch.
 

hounddawg

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A fine response. Thank you, sir. No fault noted. I have no issues with a succinct reply. I actually appreciate it. Especially with the elaboration that follows. I am glad you are having fun with your reply's. I am getting a lot of info here and having fun with the process, it would not be reciprocal were I to bore or frustrate you.

My yeast is falling out of suspension and the clarity difference after 2 days was what made me think that racking added to the clearing. I suppose it makes sense that racking, likely degassing, agitating, etc. would cause more fine lees (I appreciate the clarification, I actually refrained from using lees over yeast as I was not sure of the exact definition) to come out of suspension. As far as deminish returns, I was just referring to the loss of product during each rack.

Personally I would refrain from drinking a wine with suspended yeast and aim for clarity as a minimum determination of ready or drinkable. I know many are impatient and make kits that are drunk well before maturity, even clarity. I was inferring that racking, and faster clearing would reach "drinkability" sooner. So, thank you. I understand that fining agents will.



Is there any point to age for flavor at this point, or should I just give it a few weeks and have some fun making other drinks? The marinade idea is interesting. Last night I made a braised blade roast with a dark beer with a flavor I couldn't identify. I wasn't pumpkin spice, but there was some cinnamon and something else there that would have made me toss it and dump an a lager in the past, but it was amazing. Cinamon, spice and a little I don't know what, just came through enough to make it unique and delicious. So, Berry wine? Maybe!

I am sensitive to more things than I like. I default to restricting any additives when possible. Previous replies have mentioned that K-meta will dissipate over time. Are sulphites added, sulphites added, or will some time allow them to nutralize with the removal of contaminants? It doesn't sound like much more than a pinch would be necessary if you use 1/4 tsp for 5 times my batch.
yes and when you open a bottle let it breath for 15 or so minutes, or decant your wine, ,
Dawg
 

vinny

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Interesting. I know what decanting is, but a quick search brings up very vague info. I assume breathing and decanting can only really be oxidizing, other than pouring off of the sediment.

Does this cause oxidation and neutralization of the more undesirable/volitile compounds?
 

hounddawg

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Interesting. I know what decanting is, but a quick search brings up very vague info. I assume breathing and decanting can only really be oxidizing, other than pouring off of the sediment.

Does this cause oxidation and neutralization of the more undesirable/volitile compounds?
@vinny
sorry, ok when you open a red and let it sit open for 15 minutes or so that is letting it breath, next time you open a red as soon as you open it pour you a sip and drink it, then say 15 minutes later after letting your bottle standing open pour you another sip, pay attention to the first sip and the second sip, so you can compare how just opened and let breath changes the flavor, a decant is a fancy type glass vessel , that you pour wine in to let it breath, always taste a sip from a just opened bottle then one after it has breathed, if you will let me know what you think, i open a red and let it set up to 30 minutes depending on the red, it lets your wine off gas mynute amounts of trapped gas, give it a try and let us know if you can tell the difference, whites, to me any way are different, i don't let them breath, nor do i decant a white,,,
Dawg
 

vinny

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hmmm. I've let a red breath. Only cause they say to. Never decanted, and never bothered to taste before breathing. I'm curious to try. I suppose this is all part of identifying the nuances and building discernment?
 

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