Stuck fermentation update

Due to a record breaking heatwave, my fermentation stopped at 1004/1003. BM 4x4 is heat toleran to 82 - never paid attention to these facts b/c I live in Canada and I cannot recall temps in the 90s for 7 straight days...it hit 94 twice the past few days..

So forum member recommended EC118 along with a nutrient.. Got that today and i am going to pitch it to see if I can re-start...

A few questions:

1. What would happen if I just pressed it at its current SG? (other than being a little sweet?)

2. If I do pitch, should I follow the recommendations on the package for quantity or should I put less due to the fact that it is almost complete?

3. How long should this take given temps are still warm?

4. Will this change my wine's taste? I selected BM4x4 for a reason... EC118 is used for white wines and sparkling wines, from my understanding... I made a sangiovese...

5. Any other tips/recommendations before I do this?

thanks!!

Taste won't be effected at all. EC1118 won't be doing that much work for you. Pitch the whole thing. Well actually what I would do is get it started in a gallon container, let it go for 15-30 minutes, add about the same amount of your wine to it. wait about 30 minutes, add the amount you now have in your container, wait. repeat, doubling the amount you put in each time, until you fill the gallon, then pitch that into your must. It will give the yeast the best chance of being acclimated and finishing up for you.

hard to say how much longer your ferment will take, I would guess a day or so. You can press before you do all this, if you wish, but I would try to get it to finish fermenting, so you don't have to worry about it firing back up later, when you move this to a cooler environment.

I would press the grape must now. the additional oxygen from the pressing may restart the fermentation on its own.
at the point you are now it will be difficult to restart a fermentation. if it does not start after pressing allowing a few days, then hydrate the yeast, once bubbling. add one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident until all is fermenting.

Siwash, I was just about to post something very similar, referencing your wine as well. And attempting to accomplish 3 things:
1. Figure out why it happened (I'm not sold on the temps)
2. How to keep it from happening again
3. What to do moving forward

Instead I'll just piggyback your thread.

I just experienced this for the 1st time on 2 different primaries. One majority Sangiovese blend from grapes (BM 4x4) and one Grenache blend juice pail (natural).
Temps got to mid 80s which to me seems pretty low to stall out a fermentation already going strong. But I also had high pHs at 3.9 and 4.0.
I'm pressed, racked, finished MLF awaiting adjustments and stabilizing. Both sitting right about 1.000. But I feel like we both might be in no mans land. Too low SG to get yeast to take off. But high enough to not have the wine we intended to make.
If yeast or starter was added and it did not take off could it end up with a "yeastie" flavor? I would not want to add any sugar to the starter so I don't end up without even more RS. Before I racked the primaries I attempted a starter ec1118 on the juice batch. It never took off and smelled like yeast and I ended up tossing. If Everclear was added to properly bump ABV could that also give the wine a full dry feel?
Attempting a starter step feeding seems tedious and time consuming for something that has a good chance of doing nothing aside from making my wine taste like yeast. Tho my 1st failed starter attempt may make me biased.
Of the grape batch I have a 15 gal demi, 5 gal carboy, and half full 1 gal jug currently refrigerated that I could play with. What do you think, add yeast and see if it finishes off, add Everclear and see how that affects the dryness, or let it roll as is. (I think it tastes good currently but would benefit from abv bump/going dry)
Aside from explaining the yeast starter process, I want to know what others would do given the same situation. Cmason, would you do that starter to a batch at 1.000? 1.002? Siwash you too- what's the plan?

I'm in Arizona and also fermented my Sangiovese with BM 4x4. Your issue sounds to me that it could be nutrient related. BM 4x4 requires a fair amount of yeast nutrients during fermentation. I used fermaid O at first punch down and at 30% depletion and had no issues two years in a row. I would follow salcocos advise and press it now to allow the added oxygen to get you to completion. It's pretty late in the game to add yeast nutrients.

I should mention that part of my problem was also that I was a little short on yeast... but other recommended that I had enough to get by. BM4x4 only tolerate 82 but my ambient temp hit high 80s recently... which means must was higher. I didn't measure must temp.

I am still unsure what to do but must decide by tonight or I will lose this must at these temps.. it's still bloody hot - are you folks also experiencing this record heat? We smashed records every day over the past 5 days and it's been above normal for 2 weeks

I believe Siwash properly fed nutrients during fermentation. As did I. Though I used ferm K,not O, at 1st punch and at 1/3 through. (Around 1.060)
Maybe I'm wrong, but 82° would keep it from starting, but not stop active fermentation that naturally raises the temps.

salcoco said:

I would press the grape must now. the additional oxygen from the pressing may restart the fermentation on its own.
at the point you are now it will be difficult to restart a fermentation. if it does not start after pressing allowing a few days, then hydrate the yeast, once bubbling. add one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident until all is fermenting.

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I think this is what I am going to do... i just don't understand all of your suggested steps... what do you mean by adding "one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident..."

Do you mean add one cup of hydrated yeast to the pressed must?

Also, what about racking off the lees ? I usually do that after 2 days but waiting for another fermentation will change that schedule... I want to do an MLF too... can I still do so?

Similar to what Cmason said. After you press your wine and no longer have the skins in there. (Which also would introduce oxygen and possibly start it up again naturally). Add hydrated yeast to 1 cup of the pressed wine. Once foaming add another. Wait, then keep doubling the amount until you've got about a gallon fermenting to add to he whole batch again.
If you do this starter attempt then you'll be doing it right away. And not rack again off the gross lees until either the fermentation kicked off and finished up, or did nothing and dropped out with the gross lees in a few days.
I'm gonna keep my batch sitting pretty since I'm pressed off lees and in glass. And let you be the guinea pig with this one since you don't have time to wait.

Also, can I put this off another day? This is day 10 since yeast pitch. I just don't have the time tonight...

Ajmassa5983 said:

Similar to what Cmason said. After you press your wine and no longer have the skins in there. (Which also would introduce oxygen and possibly start it up again naturally). Add hydrated yeast to 1 cup of the pressed wine. Once foaming add another. Wait, then keep doubling the amount until you've got about a gallon fermenting to add to he whole batch again.

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Okay, now I think I understand...!

Thanks

Siwash said:

Also, can I put this off another day? This is day 10 since yeast pitch. I just don't have the time tonight...

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Ya went this long what's one more day. That's my issue too. Seems like I need a full day with the wine to properly step feed the starter. A full day which I do not have to give just yet.

It's gonna have to wait... family commitments, work come first.. I just hope I don't lose this batch. When I transfer this stuff to my basement, it's only 66 down there. Guess I'll need a heater if I intend to see if there's any fermentation left?

Ajmassa5983 said:

Ya went this long what's one more day. That's my issue too. Seems like I need a full day with the wine to properly step feed the starter. A full day which I do not have to give just yet.

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Ya almost need to be retired to do this properly! I have very young kids at home - a newborn and a 3 year old! Oh well, when i retire this won't happen!

I hear ya man. Crush and press were crowbarred into my schedule as well. But it's not the end of the world. Like I said, my wine is pressed and racked and awaiting adjustments still at 1.000. It does taste promising. Not all is lost. But I know getting it fermented dry would just help make make it become that much better.

Ajmassa5983 said:

I believe Siwash properly fed nutrients during fermentation. As did I. Though I used ferm K,not O, at 1st punch and at 1/3 through. (Around 1.060)
Maybe I'm wrong, but 82° would keep it from starting, but not stop active fermentation that naturally raises the temps.

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Bm4x4 has a really low optimal temp range. 82f, i just measures my must temps and my room is 69f and my must is generating alot of heat, it was at 82f before i cooled it down using a couple frozen water bottles. 13f dofference in room vs must temp. If his room was high 80s to 90f hos must temp may have gone over 100f, that temp can be harmful to a yeast not designed to withstand those temps. Theres lots of other yeasts that will withstand higher temps but bm4x4 isnt one of them according to lalvins website. Im not sure if thats the only reason the ferment stopped but excessive heat coupled with an already low yeast count isnt a good combo. Id go with the ec1118 idea, at this point id press and id get a starter going in a 1 or 2 gallon container hydrate with goferm at 43c wait 15 min and add 1/4 cup of my juice to the yeast, wait 15 min and add a 1/2 cup, id keep that process going doubling my juice into the yeast jug until i had a good starter going, if you get a gallon starter going and it looks active and foaming it should start up your wine and finish it off.

On the other hand if by the time youve added half a gallon of wine into your yeast starter, if it doesnt look like its foaming and wanting to get going id scratch that idea. Because at that point id have to start looking at other reasons why the ferment stopped. Ph possibly. I know the two grapes i ordered out of cali both had high ph.

Smok1 said:

Bm4x4 has a really low optimal temp range. 82f, i just measures my must temps and my room is 69f and my must is generating alot of heat, it was at 82f before i cooled it down using a couple frozen water bottles. 13f dofference in room vs must temp. If his room was high 80s to 90f hos must temp may have gone over 100f, that temp can be harmful to a yeast not designed to withstand those temps. Theres lots of other yeasts that will withstand higher temps but bm4x4 isnt one of them according to lalvins website. Im not sure if thats the only reason the ferment stopped but excessive heat coupled with an already low yeast count isnt a good combo. Id go with the ec1118 idea, at this point id press and id get a starter going in a 1 or 2 gallon container hydrate with goferm at 43c wait 15 min and add 1/4 cup of my juice to the yeast, wait 15 min and add a 1/2 cup, id keep that process going doubling my juice into the yeast jug until i had a good starter going, if you get a gallon starter going and it looks active and foaming it should start up your wine and finish it off.

On the other hand if by the time youve added half a gallon of wine into your yeast starter, if it doesnt look like its foaming and wanting to get going id scratch that idea. Because at that point id have to start looking at other reasons why the ferment stopped. Ph possibly. I know the two grapes i ordered out of cali both had high ph.

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Thanks to al for your assistance... hopefully I'll get to the bottom of this!

At this point because its been a few days now that the fermentation has stopped if it was me id press now because theres probly not alot of co2 cap protecting your wine anymore. Id press now, hopefully there might be a little resodual sugar you could press from the in berries still which could help get fermentation started back up again

Smok1 said:

At this point because its been a few days now that the fermentation has stopped if it was me id press now because theres probly not alot of co2 cap protecting your wine anymore. Id press now, hopefully there might be a little resodual sugar you could press from the in berries still which could help get fermentation started back up again

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I crossed that "press and pray" bridge 2 weeks ago to no avail. I'm a couple digits lower than Siwash at 1.000 but I still don't like it.
I was keeping temp of the room an of the must throughout. The room was steady at 75° the whole time. And I pitched 78° hydrated yeast as the must was just about up to 69°.
BM4x4 is a very popular strain. I was originally looking at BDX or BM45 but was advised against it since BM4x4 was a proven winner for big reds. I do find it highly unlikely that reaching 82° during fermentation would stall it out. With the amount of people using this yeast in September ferments I gotta think that on average the must temp will creep into the 80°s on a large percentage. And if it is that sensitive to high temp I am very surprised i haven't seen it mentioned at all.
RC212 is the yeast I've mostly used and never had an issue like this before. But I truly believe it's not BM4x4's fault. Because I had the same exact stall happen on a totally different batch with totally different yeast. A juice bucket that went off on natural yeast. I added a commercial strain to attempt to overtake the ferment but I'll never know for sure which yeast went to work on that one- the wild yeast or the andante. It stopped at 1.001-1.002ish. When I attempted to make a starter with EC1118 I could not get it to show visible foaming at all- even with the added sugar.
I think it was the high ph- even tho I really have no scientific reasons for thinking this. Just process of elimination. Both of my stalled batches were at 3.9 and 4.0
Now that MLF is complete (super fast) my plan is likely going to be to adjust the acid first, and then probably attempt some kind of starter as suggested.
Siwash- I feel your pain buddy. Good luck. Keep us posted.

My original suggestion ie dubbed as a yeast starter, is to continue doubling adding the wine to the yeast/wine combination that is hopefully fermenting. I would not stop at just a gallon of yeast starter and return it to the pressed wine, but continue adding the pressed wine to the yeast/wine combination doubling each time. eventually practicality will take over and the yeast/wine combination will be large enough to combine with the starting volume of pressed wine.