WineXpert Question regarding making WE Amarone Style private reserve

[Tripled92]

So we just picked up wine experts private reserve amarone style and plan on starting it next week. We have made a few private reserves in the past when we were novice at wine making. For months now we pretty much just use the kit juice and upgrade everything else in the classic and reserve kits. Months later we are back starting a private reserve. It contains two yeasts (ec-1118 & rc212). We know rc212 is the right one for it, but want to stay away from ec1118 (nothing against it, just it a clean basic fermenting yeast) and rather use the second pack for something that could pull other notes from the wine.

So my question is why in the private reserve reds to they have two different yeast packets?

Second question, since their is two packets and we don’t want to use ec-1118 can we just use two packets of rc 212 or what other yeast would you recommend to use with rc212?

 

[Rocky]

That is a very good kit and I have one in bulk aging currently.

The two yeast packs would give you a broader range of effectiveness. EC1118 is more tolerant of higher alcohol and lower temperatures during fermentation. Alcohol may not be an issue as long as it is below 16% and temperature would not be an issue as long as it is above 68 degrees F.

 

[Tripled92]

That is a very good kit and I have one in bulk aging currently.

The two yeast packs would give you a broader range of effectiveness. EC1118 is more tolerant of higher alcohol and lower temperatures during fermentation. Alcohol may not be an issue as long as it is below 16% and temperature would not be an issue as long as it is above 68 degrees F.

Thank you for the response. What other yeast would you recommend to go with the rc212 instead of ec1118

 

[Rocky]

Thank you for the response. What other yeast would you recommend to go with the rc212 instead of ec1118

I use the RC212 almost exclusively for full bodied reds. In the past, I have used Red Star Pasteur Red, which is slightly better than RC212 at low temperatures but you still have to watch the alcohol content, i.e. less than or equal to 16%. There are a number of other yeasts that I am sure are excellent and others may chime in with their recommendations.

May I ask why you are reluctant to use the EC1118?

 

[Tripled92]

I use the RC212 almost exclusively for full bodied reds. In the past, I have used Red Star Pasteur Red, which is slightly better than RC212 at low temperatures but you still have to watch the alcohol content, i.e. less than or equal to 16%. There are a number of other yeasts that I am sure are excellent and others may chime in with their recommendations.

May I ask why you are reluctant to use the EC1118?

Due to the ec1118 just being a steady and clean ferment yeast. That’s why i trying to understand the purpose of the two yeast and if we have to. Because in theory it seems like you should be able to use rc212 and another yeast to pull two different notes out of the wine. Instead of rc 212 pulling its note and ec1118 just for making a steady fermentation.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, if two packets have to be used, i would rather make a more complex wine (two different yeasts) and not have to worry with ec1118 because we can control the temperature really well.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Because in theory it seems like you should be able to use rc212 and another yeast to pull two different notes out of the wine. Instead of rc 212 pulling its note and ec1118 just for making a steady fermentation.

In theory, the problem is yeast can have a killer phenomenon such that is kills the second yeast you put in. I applaud your effort to add complexity. What has been done with success is to divide your juice into two buckets, putting your yeasts of choice in each. Then when the SG gets to 1.030 ish, yeasts no longer generate flavors, only alcohol. So at this point I would combine the two buckets into one, and top it off with EC1118. That way if one yeast kills the other, you have a safety built in. EC1118 will not provide flavor, only alcohol. So it’s the safest most reliable approach.

 

[MiBor]

I made the WE Amarone (Veneto) in the past and I also have 3 of them fermenting together right now in primary. I don't use the EC1118 that comes with the kit, I only use the RC212 which I buy fresh, because most yeast that comes with the kits is DOA.

The purpose of the EC1118 is to finish fermentation under any conditions. It won't contribute any flavors or aromas to the wine, but it will power through the most difficult fermentations. Kit producers don't want stalled ferments which reflect poorly on their products, so they introduce the EC1118 to the mix knowing that advanced winemakers won't use it and novice ones won't have stuck fermentations if they follow the instructions. Just to illustrate the situation a little better, a six gallon batch only needs one pack of yeast for a successful fermentation.

One other reason I don't use the included EC1118 is that it has a very strong killer factor and it will overwhelm and eliminate the RC212 in the first few days of the primary fermentation if added at the same time. That mostly nullifies its benefits and the resulting wine will be fermented dry but not as flavorful as it could have been.

If you know what you're doing, skip the EC1118 and keep the must at or around 73-75F for the RC212 to finish dry. A couple of fresh packets of RC212 would ensure that you have a clean and efficient fermentation and the resulting wine will have the flavors and aromas that Amarone is known for.

 

[Tripled92]

I made the WE Amarone (Veneto) in the past and I also have 3 of them fermenting together right now in primary. I don't use the EC1118 that comes with the kit, I only use the RC212 which I buy fresh, because most yeast that comes with the kits is DOA.

The purpose of the EC1118 is to finish fermentation under any conditions. It won't contribute any flavors or aromas to the wine, but it will power through the most difficult fermentations. Kit producers don't want stalled ferments which reflect poorly on their products, so they introduce the EC1118 to the mix knowing that advanced winemakers won't use it and novice ones won't have stuck fermentations if they follow the instructions. Just to illustrate the situation a little better, a six gallon batch only needs one pack of yeast for a successful fermentation.

One other reason I don't use the included EC1118 is that it has a very strong killer factor and it will overwhelm and eliminate the RC212 in the first few days of the primary fermentation if added at the same time. That mostly nullifies its benefits and the resulting wine will be fermented dry but not as flavorful as it could have been.

If you know what you're doing, skip the EC1118 and keep the must at or around 73-75F for the RC212 to finish dry. A couple of fresh packets of RC212 would ensure that you have a clean and efficient fermentation and the resulting wine will have the flavors and aromas that Amarone is known for.

Thank you for this! So just to clarify, are you saying add only 1 packet of rc212 or 2 packets of rc212. I also saw somewhere online that i could take ec1118 out and do rc212 and either bm45 or d245

 

[MiBor]

To successfully use 2 different yeasts for added complexity you have to split the ferment and use one yeast for half of it and the other yeast for the other half. Then when fermentation is almost complete, recombine the split batch and age it together. I do NOT recommend you add two different yeasts at the same time to the same batch.

The reason I double up on the RC212 is that this yeast is somewhat finnicky and sensitive and it takes longer for it to multiply. I adopted the "safety in numbers" approach for the WE kits and I never had a failed fermentation, although I had to run to the store a few times. If at all possible, get some fresh RC212 for your kit. I'm speaking from experience.

There is no need for BM4x4 or any other strains for Amarone if you can get RC212 going strong. It's not the easiest yeast to work with but it produces the best flavors for a full-bodied red wine, on top of color stability and fruity aromas. You can find information on these forums or on Lallemand's website, on how to make an yeast starter. That's the best way to inoculate RC212 to Amarone. Also remember that this yeast likes to be warm to produce the best flavors, so keep your must around 75F.

 

[winemaker81]

As others have noted, EC-1118 may be included in high SG kits to ensure the ferment finishes. Also as noted, EC-1118 has the killer factor, and RC-212 is a sensitive, so it seems certain that EC-1118 will be the dominant yeast if both are added.

I have a high SG kit in bulk aging now, with the expectation that the ABV will be between 15.7% and 16.3%. The kit came with RC-212 and EC-1118, with the instructions to add both.

RC-212 is reported to have a 16% tolerance, so it was iffy if it would finish. My solution was to make an overnight starter with RC-212. When the SG hit 1.008, the fermentation slowed down more than I thought was typical, so it was likely the RC-212 was reaching its limit. I made an overnight starter with EC-1118 and the ferment finished cleanly.

This approach gives you all the benefits of RC-212, while ensuring the wine finishes dry.

Thank you for this! So just to clarify, are you saying add only 1 packet of rc212 or 2 packets of rc212. I also saw somewhere online that i could take ec1118 out and do rc212 and either bm45 or d245

A regular sized packet of yeast is good for 23 liter batches. There's no need to add 2. I suspect that vendors may add 2 packets for high SG kits to help ensure the yeast takes off in a high sugar environment. If you make an overnight starter, there's no need for 2 packets of the same yeast.