RJ Spagnols Messed Up on Directions - Need Help

[JerryF]

I had posted an additional problem I was having with one of my kits but just realized I'd buried it within my original thread and probably why nobody has thrown out any comments or suggestions simply because they haven't seen it? Anyway, I am in desperate need of some help or advice on how to proceed. I had put on a kit of the RJS Cab Franc ice wine, their Cru Specialty, Limited Release kit. The kit calls for no water to be added, bentonite and the 2 packs of Lalvin 1118 yeast sprinkled on the surface. The kit also contains a small packet (1.5 liters) of their finishing blend (sweetener) supposed to be added near the end to finish and achieve a certain level of sweetness one would typically see in an ice wine. Well, before I'd realized what I had done, I'd also added a little more than 1/2 of this sweetener blend and mixed it in. In the back of my mind has to have been the thinking of using additional sugars in the primary in the hopes of bumping my ABV a bit (exactly what I had done previously to my batch of strawberry Riesling - it turned out marvelous). I know what I did was a total mistake and deviation from the kit directions but it happened and now I pay the price. In any event, my problem is still here. My initial SG (with the unintentional mistake of 1/2 the sweetener pack) was at 1.187. I had good fermentation going after about 2 days (some heat from a brew belt too), but then I noticed after the 5th day, my SG was only down to 1.170 and even now has only gone to 1.160. Problem is, there is no longer any signs of fermentation and all the bubbling and foaming has stopped. My batch was around 82 degrees which was a bit warmer than usual for me so I unplugged the brew belt the last 2 day. I have gently stirred in some yeast energizer and this doesn't really appear to have helped. Does this finishing blend I accidently added at the beginning contain something that may have ultimately caused the yeast to stop fermenting (i.e. sorbates)? I was thinking I might make up a yeast starter pack (more 1118 started in some of the wine out of the primary) plus some yeast nutrient and blend it back in to see if I can get this batch restarted (the RJS kit suggests for this type of kit, I ferment to the range of 1.060 - 1.070 so that's significantly further to go than where I'm at now).

Is this even possible to restart if the finishing blend had sorbates in it though? I'm desperately seeking some help or advice on how I can save this batch (much too expensive to just dump) and going forward (my head hanging in shame), gotta keep my brain in "operation mode" instead of "standby".

Sorry to be so long winded on this folks but I'm really at a loss. Today being Sunday, I can't really call RJS directly so before I get to that point, hoping for some help from all the expertise on WMT.

Jerry

 

[Dugger]

Jerry - I haven't made an ice wine kit so I checked the online directions for this kit. Are you sure of your SG readings? An OG of 1.187 is extremely high and my hydrometers don't even go that high. The directions range the OG at 1.100-1.120 and even with the addition of half the f-pack, it wouldn't go that high, so perhaps your readings were misread.
The sweetening pack would contain sorbate but it shouldn't be enough to stop fermentation, so I don't think t'hat is a problem. You had good visible fermentation for two days and your temps weren't low or overly high so that shouldn't be a problem.
What do your instructions say for starting and finishing SG's? How many days has it been going now?

 

[JerryF]

Jerry - I haven't made an ice wine kit so I checked the online directions for this kit. Are you sure of your SG readings? An OG of 1.187 is extremely high and my hydrometers don't even go that high. The directions range the OG at 1.100-1.120 and even with the addition of half the f-pack, it wouldn't go that high, so perhaps your readings were misread.
The sweetening pack would contain sorbate but it shouldn't be enough to stop fermentation, so I don't think t'hat is a problem. You had good visible fermentation for two days and your temps weren't low or overly high so that shouldn't be a problem.
What do your instructions say for starting and finishing SG's? How many days has it been going now?

Actually, you're right to question the SG readings. When I put the bag of juice in and then the bentonite I read where it said do not add additional water. I noted that the density of the juice seemed kind of "thick" and syrupy. Even after I added the 1/2 Fpack, it stayed about the same. When I used my thief to take out a sample to read the SG and put it into the test cylinder, the liquid sort of clung to the sides. When I put the hydrometer in, it stayed floating right near the top and was actually below the bottom mark on the scale. My reading of 1.187 is an extrapolation of the scale because I couldn't actually read it! Only now, after it has gone through some fermentation (the batch has been on now for 7 days today) do I get the reading from near the bottom of the scale (bottom of scale=higher readings). 7 days to get on scale? I have calibrated this particular hydrometer many times (60 degree water at reading of 1.000) so I somewhat trust it. The kit instructions do not suggest a starting SG. They only give me an SG range of 1.060-1.070 at which I should look at stabilizing additives and suggests this should be somewhere between 10-14 days. It was actually 2 days before I got pronounced fermentation activity but then it was going along quite nicely up until I noticed it yesterday morning as being virtually "still", no activity at all, temperature at 78. It's been like that now for over 24 hours.

 

[JerryF]

PICTURE - Messed Up on Directions - Need Help

Not very good with some of these computer programs but here is a picture of where I was at with my OG reading. Physically measured the scale and extrapolated a reading to below the last mark on the scale. BTW, I have 4 hydrometers and all are calibrated the same (1.000 at 60 deg. F) and all 4 give me the same reading.

 

[diggerdan17]

According to the RJ Spagnols website this Cab France ice wine kit DOES call for the addition of water at the start. It appears to make 3 gallons of wine . You stated above that not only did you NOT add water (which you should have ) but you also added the fpac at the beginning. It does not suprise me that your having trouble getting the yeasts to multiply in a very high sugar solution. The instructions indicate that youe wine should have a STARTING SG of 1.100 -1.112.

Here is a link to the instuctions

http://www.rjscraftwinemaking.com/assets/images/products/media/26279 Port & IceWine Specialty.pdf

 

[JerryF]

According to the RJ Spagnols website this Cab France ice wine kit DOES call for the addition of water at the start. It appears to make 3 gallons of wine . You stated above that not only did you NOT add water (which you should have ) but you also added the fpac at the beginning. It does not suprise me that your having trouble getting the yeasts to multiply in a very high sugar solution. The instructions indicate that youe wine should have a STARTING SG of 1.100 -1.112.

Here is a link to the instuctions

http://www.rjscraftwinemaking.com/assets/images/products/media/26279 Port & IceWine Specialty.pdf

Sorry but I've got to dispute this. I have the instruction sheet right in front of me again (for the 10th time in the last few days) and there are clearly NO directions (ANYWHERE) that call for adding water. In fact, under the heading Primary Fermentation, Day 1, Step 2, it clearly states " bag contains exact volume do not add more water". I admit my mistake with the fpack but everything else has been in strict accordance with the directions that came with the kit. At the bottom of the sheet there is a kit identifier, marked copyright RJS, 28584 INST SHT 6 WK CRU SPECIALTY.

 

[saramc]

Jerry is correct, he has a newer instruction sheet from 2010-no addl water to be added. Your kit comes with up to 2 packets of sorbate, so I doubt there is enough/any sorbate in the finishing blend. Call RJS tomorrow, see what they say, because there really is nothing you can do at this point. I never freak about lack of foam/bubbles because only your hydrometer will tell you what is happening. It commonly takes a full 2 days for ferment to kick off, the fact that you have seen a decline in SG is good. They may advise to rack and pitch a new yeast.

Found sheet here, it is not even on RJS website, strange. Will download PDF... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hRo0A7YJKo5yBUCPw&sig2=_fwyv3CAf8LGIkk8ZaQC7Q

 

[JerryF]

Jerry.....what is the current volume of your must? Is it at least 3 gallons?

It's exactly 12.5 liters so yes, I have just over the 3 gallon mark. BTW, after reading diggerdan 17 reply, when I went to the rjs website (www.rjspagnols.com) they don't even list this kit I've got. The direction sheet diggerdan sent me the link to is a different kit number than what I've got and it shows a copyright date for the instruction sheet as 2006. My instruction sheet is copyright dated 2010. I think I'll be contacting them tomorrow by phone to see what gives and any suggestions.

 

[SouthernChemist]

The instructions appear to say that your wine should finish fermenting to ~1.060-1.070. It does not, however, say anything about what the expected initial S.G. should be. Even though you're not adding any water, you would think that they would still tell you. Otherwise, how would you know something is wrong? Regardless, ending at that level would suggest that must had a very high initial S.G. even before your accidental addition of the F-pack. I've done the CC Porto Corinto kit before, and it started high (~1.15ish off the top of my head) only going down to the 1.020-1.030 range (again, off the top of my head). That kit used 2 packs of EC-1118, but the instructions specifically had you made a yeast starter by rehydrating the yeast in water and then feed a small amount of must to them over time. It could very well be that your S.G. was too high to just sprinkle the packs of yeast on top, and what yeast did survive were too shocked to continue very long.

I don't know if the F-pack on that kit has sorbate in it, but based on what you've said, it is possible that you could restart fermentation by making a yeast starter and slowly acclimate them to the must by adding small amounts over time.

 

[Dugger]

It's strange that they don't give a starting SG range for these kits in the new instructions. It would likely start around 1.160-70 if it finishes around 1.060-70. My experience with regular kits is that they drop about 20 points per day when fermentation gets going good and then slow down after 4 days or so. This would seem to work out right if your present reading was 1.070 instead of 1.170, and it sounds like you have had fermentation for a few days.
Did you try a reading directly in the bucket instead of the test jar - I have found that the hydrometer often sticks to the side of the jar and gives me a false reading.
You seem to know what you are doing ( other than the f-pack mistake) so I'm grasping at straws here.

 

[JerryF]

It's strange that they don't give a starting SG range for these kits in the new instructions. It would likely start around 1.160-70 if it finishes around 1.060-70. My experience with regular kits is that they drop about 20 points per day when fermentation gets going good and then slow down after 4 days or so. This would seem to work out right if your present reading was 1.070 instead of 1.170, and it sounds like you have had fermentation for a few days.
Did you try a reading directly in the bucket instead of the test jar - I have found that the hydrometer often sticks to the side of the jar and gives me a false reading.
You seem to know what you are doing ( other than the f-pack mistake) so I'm grasping at straws here.

LOL. I only 'think" I know what I'm doing but I always wonder after one of these brain fart episodes. Have not tried reading right in the bucket though. Maybe I will try that.

 

[robie]

You really need to call RJS directly and not the LHBS. You have a mess on your hands, so maybe they can either feel sorry for you and replace the kit or tell you what you might do to fix it.

You just might have to chalk this one up as experience.

 

[jsiddall]

I realized this is an old thread, but I just started this kit myself and agree with JerryF it is extremely sweet. My initial SG (extrapolated since it was off the end of my hydrometer also) was about 1.18. The kit instructions clearly states to add no water, and just sprinkle two packs of yeast on the surface. Mine started foaming after a few hours at 26 C so the yeast seems to be going.

JerryF, I am curious how yours turned out. What did the SG eventually drop to?

Edit: Oops, I just found the other thread with the results: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/cab-franc-red-ice-wine-38450/

 

[cpfan]

I realized this is an old thread, but I just started this kit myself and agree with JerryF it is extremely sweet.

It's an ice wine. The finished wine is supposed to be very sweet.

Steve

 

[jsiddall]

It's an ice wine. The finished wine is supposed to be very sweet.

Steve

Sweet when finished, yes. But this was extremely sweet to start!

 

[SouthernChemist]

Many ice wines are about 10-12%...so you would need to start quite high to end up in the typical 1.040+ SG range that you'd expect for an ice wine. Other kits will add all the sweetness later and not start at a high SG.

 

[jsiddall]

Agreed. This one seems to have both -- high initial SG plus a big F-pack. So if I want my finished product less sweet than normal should I only add part of the F-pack or will that mess up something else?