Co-inoculation

I am preparing for my first run at grapes. Making sure I have everything lined, timelined etc... I am at the point of trying to decide whether to co-inoculate (yeast then MLB within 24 hours) or MLB after primary fermentation is finished.

I would like to know what everyone's preference is? I'm going to make a Cab, Zin and Petite Syrah. Using Enoderm BDX and ZP41 for the mlb. Information oin the Lallemand website says BDX it is MLF friendly so that you can co-inoculate.

Thanks in advance.

What I do (and what I believe is common practice) is primary fermentation and press first. 24-48 hours after press: rack off the lees, THEN pitch your MLB.

I do what Boatboy Jim does because I learned from him. So if it doesn't work for you that way just blame it on Boatboy. He can take it.

That was my initial plan but then I learned of co-inoculation and I am considering.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/20...lation-of-malolactic-bacteria-and-wine-yeast/

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Boatboy24 said:

What I do (and what I believe is common practice) is primary fermentation and press first. 24-48 hours after press: rack off the lees, THEN pitch your MLB.

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Does that work for yeasts strains that are often considered 'not compatible' with MLF? (E.g. EC1118, K1-V1116 or BM4x4/BM45)

zadvocate said:

That was my initial plan but then I learned of co-inoculation and I am considering.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/20...lation-of-malolactic-bacteria-and-wine-yeast/

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

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Wow! That was an interesting read, explains a lot of the troubles experienced from adding post AF. I am excited and thankful for your post. I will do a experiment with this info on my upcoming crush.

This removes a lot of the fears of conducting a MLF. Will be gathering more information.

Thanks again!

Spikedlemon said:

Does that work for yeasts strains that are often considered 'not compatible' with MLF? (E.g. EC1118, K1-V1116 or BM4x4/BM45)

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Where is the info that BM 4x4 isn't compatible with MLF?


EDIT: Never mind I found it.

Spikedlemon said:

Does that work for yeasts strains that are often considered 'not compatible' with MLF? (E.g. EC1118, K1-V1116 or BM4x4/BM45)

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It has worked for me, yes. (with the exception of this Spring's wines - but I don't think the timing of inoculation is the issue)

zadvocate said:

That was my initial plan but then I learned of co-inoculation and I am considering.

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/20...lation-of-malolactic-bacteria-and-wine-yeast/

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Click to expand...

Good reads. And, like @Tnuscan , I'll consider going this route with this fall's wines.

After giving this thought I have a couple of questions.

1- Is this possible for the home wine maker? (open top fermenter?)

2- At pressing you have (A) wood slats on press (soaking in the bacteria), (B) lots of chances of nasties getting into the mix if MLF has not finished, from fermenter to press, from press to carboy or barrel.

Tnuscan said:

After giving this thought I have a couple of questions.

1- Is this possible for the home wine maker? (open top fermenter?)

2- At pressing you have (A) wood slats on press (soaking in the bacteria), (B) lots of chances of nasties getting into the mix if MLF has not finished, from fermenter to press, from press to carboy or barrel.

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Regarding #2, I wouldn't worry, unless you're pressing white wines with the same press in the future. And as far as 2B goes, those nasties will be there if you've already pitched the MLB or not - in either case, you haven't sulfited.

As far as #1 - sure, why not?

My thinking was that the MLB during MLF needed to be protected from oxygen and the open environment that it would be introduced to thru using a open ratchet style press. (not enclosed).


I have never conducted MLF, as this will be my first time using grapes. I just crushed 150 pnds of Noriet on the 16th. In a couple of weeks I will do 800 pnds of Chambourcin. Three weeks from that I will be doing 300 pnds of Cynthiana.

If using the open press will not have any negative effects, and everything is consistent, I would like to use this technique on 1/3 of the Chambourcin, and 1/2 of the Cynthiana.

It just sounds like the way to go, from what I have read. MW suggested not to perform co inoculation. What are your thoughts?

I've only read through it once, but it seems as if the MLF would be pretty much finished by the time you pressed, which seems unbelievable to me since it normally seems to take at least 3-4 weeks minimum when the MLB is added post-ferment. Maybe the more favorable environment of lower alcohol is conducive to a quicker completion of MLF. Thinking of trying it this fall using CH16 on a Zinfandel all grape batch. Still pondering the yeast but will pick one that Lallemand suggest is "Highly suitable for co-innoculation".

I use a plastic "butt bucket press" so not super worried about infecting my "press" with residual bacteria. If I would I'd throw it out or use it to store corks or something. Some day when I grow up and buy a real press I guess I'll have to worry about that. Until then I'll enjoy my blissful wine childhood, no worries.

Well to be honest, after reading this information on co inoculation, I was excited. Especially after reading where so many people had extended, slow or non productive MLF's this season.

Never having performed a MLF, and only paying attention to post- MLF posts and articles, I had assumed by it being performed in a carboy under airlock that it shouldn't be exposed to an open environment. Even though I ferment in an open container I keep it covered with a breathable cover.

I had planned on doing all post MLF's on all of my grapes this season. But after reading this thread I thought I would do a experiment of co inoculation and post. Then I realized that the grapes, would be coming in at different times and having wooden slats on my press the latter grapes that would follow within 2 weeks, would probably pick up the bacteria too.

When I was talking to morewine today, they commented that some people they knew haven't had good results using this technique, and didn't recommend me using it. When I asked what were the issues, they replied several different ones.

S. Lab said if pH,temp,acid etc. were all in order it should go well.

I heard about this on podcast. The winemaker said that you have to pitch the MLB 24-48 after the yeast. He said if you pitch after the 48 hours it doesn't seem to work. The podcast is inside winemaking and the wine maker was Matt Reid. It was the first or second episode. I will be using this method.

I have co-inoculated yeast and MLB with no problems. Did that on the 2014 batches and they turned out fine.

heatherd said:

I have co-inoculated yeast and MLB with no problems. Did that on the 2014 batches and they turned out fine.

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Did you use whole grapes and a basket press or was this done on a juice pail?

Just spoke with someone and they said some MLF's did not finish by day 5, or 0 brix, and they pressed using basket press and it finished in the secondary vessel without any issues.

Some times it would actually finish by 0 brix. Which I think is really cool.

Really want to try this. But I'm a little worried. My dad has decided he's in on this year's wines. It's one thing if I screw up my wine. Another thing entirely if I screw up someone else's.

I guess the worst thing that could happen is I have to reinoculate?

Jim, I'm definitely planing to do it on the Zin I'm ordering, so maybe let it ride on the batches your father is in on and try it when you are just making it for your own general consumption.

I had forgotten that @heatherd had done it that way many times, so that gives me enough confidence to try it myself. If it doesn't work I'll blame it on her, she can handle it.