Help adjusting must (SG,TA and PH)

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thiago

thiago

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Hi everyone ,

I just order my first pail of frozen must from Brehm and it will arrive here wednesday 7/20/16.
I've read lot's of info regarding the necessary adjustments but would like to double check with more experience wine makers.

Here are the numbers: Syrah - Brix 26 TA 0.52 PH 3.65 YAN 52mg/l

What adjustments do you recommend? Acidulated water? Tartaric acid?

Thanks a lot
T
 
thiago said:
Hi everyone ,

I just order my first pail of frozen must from Brehm and it will arrive here wednesday 7/20/16.
I've read lot's of info regarding the necessary adjustments but would like to double check with more experience wine makers.

Here are the numbers: Syrah - Brix 26 TA 0.52 PH 3.65 YAN 52mg/l

What adjustments do you recommend? Acidulated water? Tartaric acid?

Thanks a lot
T
Click to expand...

Those aren't bad starting numbers as furnished, all in range for good AF and MLF. But, DO YOUR OWN TESTS when you get your must!!! The only adjustments I'd consider right now, is the Brix at 26, tad high on the final ABV for a Syrah, but you may like it that way. See what your actual numbers are on your must.

If you do bring it down, use acidulated water made with tartaric acid. If your AW is a little lower in Ph and higher in TA than the must, you can bring your Ph down a smidge and your TA up a bit towards the .6 - .7 target range.

If you're ok with the Brix, and since Ph / TA change during AF anyway, consider making your final Ph / TA adjustments post AF, and tasting as you go.
 
I have a lot of experience with Brehm fruit, John's advice is good, though one comment I would add is that 52mg/l YAN is very low. You will have H2S issues if you don't add enough nutrients during fermentation. Using Superfood for example, you will need to add a total of 8g of Superfood and 13g of DAP for the batch. Those nutrients should be added to the primary in 3 increments before dropping below 10brix. You can use any yeast nutrient you like, just follow their instructions. I just wanted to point out that 52 is very low, and many nutrient blends don't discuss how much additional is needed when YAN is this low.

If you test and determine that the brix is really 26, you'll have to decide if you are going to adjust or not. 26 is a little high for my taste, but it is your wine and entirely up to you. If you don't adjust the brix down, just make sure the yeast you use can deal with the high brix. I would typically adjust down to 24.5 brix; I ran the numbers, and if it is 26, the batch would require approximately 740ml of water and approximately 6g tartaric acid, and the amount of acid can be adjusted based on what the pail TA and PH test confirms.
 
Johnd said:
Those aren't bad starting numbers as furnished, all in range for good AF and MLF. But, DO YOUR OWN TESTS when you get your must!!! The only adjustments I'd consider right now, is the Brix at 26, tad high on the final ABV for a Syrah, but you may like it that way. See what your actual numbers are on your must.

If you do bring it down, use acidulated water made with tartaric acid. If your AW is a little lower in Ph and higher in TA than the must, you can bring your Ph down a smidge and your TA up a bit towards the .6 - .7 target range.

If you're ok with the Brix, and since Ph / TA change during AF anyway, consider making your final Ph / TA adjustments post AF, and tasting as you go.
Click to expand...

I think I will adjust the brix but leave TA and PH how it is for now.
Thank you very much JohnD !
 
stickman said:
I have a lot of experience with Brehm fruit, John's advice is good, though one comment I would add is that 52mg/l YAN is very low. You will have H2S issues if you don't add enough nutrients during fermentation. Using Superfood for example, you will need to add a total of 8g of Superfood and 13g of DAP for the batch. Those nutrients should be added to the primary in 3 increments before dropping below 10brix. You can use any yeast nutrient you like, just follow their instructions. I just wanted to point out that 52 is very low, and many nutrient blends don't discuss how much additional is needed when YAN is this low.

If you test and determine that the brix is really 26, you'll have to decide if you are going to adjust or not. 26 is a little high for my taste, but it is your wine and entirely up to you. If you don't adjust the brix down, just make sure the yeast you use can deal with the high brix. I would typically adjust down to 24.5 brix; I ran the numbers, and if it is 26, the batch would require approximately 740ml of water and approximately 6g tartaric acid, and the amount of acid can be adjusted based on what the pail TA and PH test confirms.
Click to expand...

I'm doing 2 pails of frozen must (10gallons) and I order 2 of the Additive Pack for Brehm Frozen from MoreWine. It comes with Go-Ferm and Fermaid K.
Should I also add some DAP? Also assuming the quantities you suggest is for one bucket correct?

As far as the Brix , I will add some acidulated water, for the 2 pails I had planned 1500ml of water and 12g of Tartaric Acid. Does this seems correct??

Thank you very much! Super excited about this one and just wanna make sure I don't mess up lol .:h
 
Using 26 as your initial Brix, and 6 gallons as your volume (roughly what you'll get from 2 pails, 1 gallon of water will move your Brix to 22.6, more in range. Using 1 gallon of water, and targeting 6 grams/liter for your acidulated water, you need 20.91 grams of tartaric acid. Consider making your gallon with 10 grams tart. acid and checking it, slowly adding the rest, checking pH along the way, don't want to get it too acidic. Once it's made, add slowly to your must and stir, checking along the way til you hit your desired Brix. Keep what you don't use, save for another batch. I know that sounds like a lot of checking, but once you add it, it's too late to take it back.

As for feeding, stickman is dead on, gotta feed the low nutrient must. I don't use DAP, strictly Fermaid K, following the recommended dosage, added at two 1/3 points, but the DAP will work too if you like to use it.
 
Yes, from your original post I thought you had one pail, so I ran the numbers as one pail. Fermaid K is fine, it is complex and has the same nitrogen content as Superfood, but at 52YAN you may have H2S without additional DAP.
 
stickman said:
Yes, from your original post I thought you had one pail, so I ran the numbers as one pail. Fermaid K is fine, it is complex and has the same nitrogen content as Superfood, but at 52YAN you may have H2S without additional DAP.
Click to expand...

Ok ... Should I start with the fermaid k that comes with the Additive Pack or use DAP first ?

Thank you very much !
 
thiago said:
Ok ... Should I start with the fermaid k that comes with the Additive Pack or use DAP first ?

Thank you very much !
Click to expand...

Personally, if I were going to use both, I'd use the DAP first, finish up with Fermaid K. If it doesn't all get used up, think I'd rather have the Fermaid K left in there. FWIW, I've never had to use more Fermaid K than the recommended dosage, but I rarely know my YAN. Stickman may have more experience there than I do and seems to feel you need more, I'll defer to his recommendation.
 
Don't make additions of DAP alone. The DAP should be added at the same time as the Fermaid K in 1/3 portions as the wine ferments. For additional information, there is a good thread here http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39655

You may want to contact one of the Labs that supplies Fermaid and ask for a nutrient recommendation for a red must at 52 YAN. The following is what I've been doing for the past 6 years, and is based on the nutrient calculations provided by the BSG catalog. https://bsgwine.com/Content/PDF/1.12.16_2016 BSG Wine Catalog PROOF.pdf

Most manufacturers publish nutrient addition rates based on 23 brix must with average nutrient deficiencies, maybe an initial YAN of 150ppm. Based on published information, a must at 23 brix may need around 200ppm YAN, but if the brix is 26 the required YAN is approximately 325ppm to 350ppm, even if you dilute the brix down, the required YAN is the same. Assuming you dilute to 24.5 brix, the final wine volume for calculation purposes is about 6.8 gallons. The additive packets of Fermaid contain 8g each, so you have 16g total. The 16g of Fermaid will provide approximately 62ppm YAN, and adding the 52ppm starting YAN gives 114ppm YAN, which is still too low. Subtracting the 114ppm from the 325ppm required means approximately 211ppm additional YAN needs to be added in the form of DAP. Therefore adding approximately 24g of DAP (~208ppm YAN) will provide the additional YAN. In highly nutrient deficient musts, if you try to add all of the required YAN with Fermaid or any complex nutrient, the wine flavor would be negatively impacted. The approximate addition schedule for three additions, inoculation, active fermentation, mid-fermentation before 10 brix, is below:

Fermaid 6.5g 6.5g 3.0g
DAP 6.5g 8.7g 8.7g


This topic is complex and there are many factors involved, there are no guarantees as even the pro's occasionally have trouble, all you can do is read the published information, take a stab, and hope for the best, and try to enjoy yourself along the way.
 
stickman said:
Don't make additions of DAP alone. The DAP should be added at the same time as the Fermaid K in 1/3 portions as the wine ferments. For additional information, there is a good thread here http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39655

You may want to contact one of the Labs that supplies Fermaid and ask for a nutrient recommendation for a red must at 52 YAN. The following is what I've been doing for the past 6 years, and is based on the nutrient calculations provided by the BSG catalog. https://bsgwine.com/Content/PDF/1.12.16_2016 BSG Wine Catalog PROOF.pdf

Most manufacturers publish nutrient addition rates based on 23 brix must with average nutrient deficiencies, maybe an initial YAN of 150ppm. Based on published information, a must at 23 brix may need around 200ppm YAN, but if the brix is 26 the required YAN is approximately 325ppm to 350ppm, even if you dilute the brix down, the required YAN is the same. Assuming you dilute to 24.5 brix, the final wine volume for calculation purposes is about 6.8 gallons. The additive packets of Fermaid contain 8g each, so you have 16g total. The 16g of Fermaid will provide approximately 62ppm YAN, and adding the 52ppm starting YAN gives 114ppm YAN, which is still too low. Subtracting the 114ppm from the 325ppm required means approximately 211ppm additional YAN needs to be added in the form of DAP. Therefore adding approximately 24g of DAP (~208ppm YAN) will provide the additional YAN. In highly nutrient deficient musts, if you try to add all of the required YAN with Fermaid or any complex nutrient, the wine flavor would be negatively impacted. The approximate addition schedule for three additions, inoculation, active fermentation, mid-fermentation before 10 brix, is below:

Fermaid 6.5g 6.5g 3.0g
DAP 6.5g 8.7g 8.7g


This topic is complex and there are many factors involved, there are no guarantees as even the pro's occasionally have trouble, all you can do is read the published information, take a stab, and hope for the best, and try to enjoy yourself along the way.
Click to expand...

Woww Stickman ... you are the man !!!

I'have been reading everything I can find and learned a lot. But always nice to have experienced people sharing info with you.
Thank you very much.:db
 
So here is what I've done so far:

Received the must (2 pails of Syrah from Brehm) on 7/20 (still almost all frozen still) temp 30F

on 7/21 morning was thaw out and temperature at 60F brix 25.8 and TA 0.5 (not sure about the pH using the strips but around 3.6 and YAN 52

Adjust the must with acidulated water brix now 24.5 also adjust the TA with Tartaric Acid to 0.65 (it only took just over half of the volume I calculate but since it reach the Brix I want I didn't ad more acidulated water. Is that ok ???


Hydrate the yeast (BM 4x4) using Go-Ferm and Fermaid K 8g (since YAN was so low). Wait about 30min and pitch the yeast.

Later that evening I add Opti-Red + Lallzyme EX

Close the fermenter and airlock

7/22 not much going on but some signs of fermentation starting. Added FT Rouge to the must
7/23 We have a cap !!!!! Punch down the cap morning and evening, temp 80F
7/24 Nice fermentation and beautiful cap temp 80F. Punch down 3x (morning , lunch and evening) SG 1.090 did not drop much in two days is this rate normal???? Added another 8g of Fermaid-K

This is very exciting and scary at the same time lol
 
Glad it's fermenting, next time don't add the fermaid K to the yeast hydration water, it can damage the yeast. It usually doesn't drop much in 2 days, it's the third day that gets crazy, usually the temperature rises, though your total volume is low so it shouldn't be a problem. I hope you are fermenting somewhere cool, and not in this summer heat. Hopefully you have some DAP on hand to add if H2S starts, remember that you need to get it in before 10 brix. I would keep temperature around 85F or less.
 
stickman said:
Glad it's fermenting, next time don't add the fermaid K to the yeast hydration water, it can damage the yeast. It usually doesn't drop much in 2 days, it's the third day that gets crazy, usually the temperature rises, though your total volume is low so it shouldn't be a problem. I hope you are fermenting somewhere cool, and not in this summer heat. Hopefully you have some DAP on hand to add if H2S starts, remember that you need to get it in before 10 brix. I would keep temperature around 85F or less.
Click to expand...

I have a control temp room that is set to 75F right now, the must temp hasn't changed always 80F (should I bump the room temp to help increase the must temp to 85F?)

I do have DAP in hand for "emergency" but was planing on using Fermaid-O for my next yeast nutrient addition.

SG morning of day 4 = 1.074
Big cap and lots of bubbles on airlock.

Thank you for all the good help!
 
thiago said:
I have a control temp room that is set to 75F right now, the must temp hasn't changed always 80F (should I bump the room temp to help increase the must temp to 85F?)

I do have DAP in hand for "emergency" but was planing on using Fermaid-O for my next yeast nutrient addition.

SG morning of day 4 = 1.074
Big cap and lots of bubbles on airlock.

Thank you for all the good help!
Click to expand...

You don't have to try to raise the temps on the ferment, just don't let it get too hot. I don't take any temp control measures until it gets close to 90, that's only happened once with a grape wine and a super thick cap that wasn't punched down for nearly a day. My fermentation area for reds is also steadily at 75. Stay the course.
 
day 8 and SG down to 1.038

Must temp 80-82F and always have a big thick cap. Have been punching 3x a day. Smells and taste pretty good so far.

Here is couple questions: At what SG/Brix should I press?? (1.000?) Also when do I add the Malo bacteria? Right after pressing or after I rack it from the gross lees?

Thanks !!

PS: I'm so addicted to this !!! Can't wait to get more grapes :HB
 
Sounds good, 1.038 is below 10 brix, so I assume you added all of your nutrients.

As long as the seeds are ripe or brown, I typically press near dry, 0 brix or below. Take a look at the seeds, if you find some that look a bit green, you may want to press a little early to avoid bitter tannin, but that is your call.

I usually add the ML culture after racking from the gross lees.
 
stickman said:
Sounds good, 1.038 is below 10 brix, so I assume you added all of your nutrients.

As long as the seeds are ripe or brown, I typically press near dry, 0 brix or below. Take a look at the seeds, if you find some that look a bit green, you may want to press a little early to avoid bitter tannin, but that is your call.

I usually add the ML culture after racking from the gross lees.
Click to expand...

Yes I followed your recommendations and so far so good !
I will check the seeds tomorrow when I check the SG again.

Since I'm adding Malo no K-meta after racking right?

Thanks for all the help!!
 
thiago said:
Yes I followed your recommendations and so far so good !
I will check the seeds tomorrow when I check the SG again.

Since I'm adding Malo no K-meta after racking right?

Thanks for all the help!!
Click to expand...

I typically don't KMS when I add MLB, although some are tolerant of moderate SO2 content. I usually press and rack to glass around 0 Brix, let it sit for a couple of days, rack off the lees into another carboy, add MLB culture and let it go from there.
 
I do as Johnd does, although I'll go 2-3 weeks sometimes before adding mlf. There are those that add it during primary, at press or later. No right answer.

It is addictive, enjoy!
 

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