Grenache yeast?

Has anyone made Grenache before? 4Score and I are doing a ton this year and we need to pick a yeast. I've heard from a trusted winemaker and I've seen another wine maker experience stuck fermentation with this variety.

I'm leaning toward the "just get er done" 1118, as I have no interest in messing with a stuck ferment like I did a few seasons ago.

I made my first 6G of Grenache last Fall from grapes from around Lodi. I used GRE. No problems, wonderful aroma and nice bouquet of Strawberry and a little black pepper. I would not use EC1118 when you have many excellent choices out there for a specific varietal.

prevent stuck fermentation using any yest with proper use of yeast hydration and yeast nutrients.

4score had a good idea of doing a bin with GRE, the other 1118. Hedge our bets and still get some benefit of the variety specific yeast.

Why not leave 1118 out of the mix and use something more suited to Grenache?

Grenache

• ICV-GRE: Strong berry and fresh fruit characters, along with some spice if present in the fruit. Enhances fore- mouth impact.
• SYR: Berry and spice, along with an enhanced mouth- feel is nicely brought out by SYR in Grenache.
• MT: Soft berry notes along with colour stability and en- hanced mouthfeel.
• RP15 (VQ15): Rich berry characters, along with min- eral notes. Enhances mouthfeel to make a lush wine.
• ICV-D254: Concentrated fruit with a focus on soft plum in Grenache. Great mouthfeel enhancement. Good for adding body to a blend.
• ICV-D80: Plum, spice and structure. Great as a blending component.
• BDX: Plum characters developed, in addition to colour stability and tannic structure re-enforcement. Useful as a blending component.
• BM45: Jammy plum, with some earthy spice. Big mouthfeel contribution along with good colour stability.

Hey IB, as I noted, I've heard from two independent and trusted sources (masters degree UCD, full time commercial winemaker) that have experienced or tell me that Grenache is prone to getting stuck. That is why I am asking people's experience and suggestions.

Sounds like you have your plan.

NorCal said:

4score had a good idea of doing a bin with GRE, the other 1118. Hedge our bets and still get some benefit of the variety specific yeast.

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Yea, I think we do. It will be interesting to taste the difference in the yeast.

Remember that yeast influence doesn't always last forever. There are many studies that demonstrate an initial preference for a specific yeast followed by the inability to determine the difference after several years of aging. That being said, Grenache is usually an early drinker, so the benefit from yeast flavor contribution should be appreciated.

4Score kept a carboy of Barbera we made with D80, and another made with D254. A year later, they still taste quite different. I think the best tasting are the two blended, which is what we did.

I had heard that there was a study of the same juice from the same batch fermented with different yeast strains. My barbera study indicated a narrowing amount of differentiation in the nose and taste over six months. My study, as Norcal noted, shows that at 6 months they were still noticeably different though. Getting closer to a year and the difference is still there. I do think they are migrating a bit towards each other, but they remain distinct and I will probably still go the route of multiple yeast strains (in separate bins) to mix and create a more complex outcome.

If we get stuck on the Grenache with GRE, we can add some of the fermenting 1118 from the other bin to kick start it.

I talked with a winemaker from Amador who has received international awards and I was surprised to learn he uses 1118. He said at the large commercial level, he cannot afford the risk of a stuck ferment. One would think he's therefore missing out on some great possibiliities....but his wine is some of the absolute BEST in the area! Knowing that he does this from starting with 1118 gives us confidence. That being said, we can still split the batch and play with other strains such as GRE. We have a similar decision to make regarding a ton of Syrah. We were thinking D80 (or 254) in one bin and 1118 in the other. Still thinking about that the D80 vs. other choices.

4score said:

We have a similar decision to make regarding a ton of Syrah. We were thinking D80 (or 254) in one bin and 1118 in the other. Still thinking about that the D80 vs. other choices.

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From MoreWine on D254: "In red wines, ICV-D254 gives a jammy, concentrated, yet soft ripe fruit character, that can often have licorice and a mild spiciness to it. Red wines made with ICV-254 may be blended with ICV-D80 (DYW66) for a more concentrated, fuller-bodied wine. "

On D80: " ICV-D80 is characterized by concentrated, dark fruit, smoke and a licorice finish. When blended with wines fermented with ICV-D254 or Syrah, wines fermented with ICV-D80 bring more tannin intensity to the blend. In short, this yeast is truly great for the structural support it can bring to a wine. However, if the winemaker is looking for highlighted fruit and ethereal top-notes as well, it often may not be the best choice when using a single strain in the vintage. Therefore, it may help to think of it as usually needing a companion strain to help bring everything to a finished wine."

I've read that it is common for winemakers to use both, then blend the finished wine. Why not use both?

In our barbera study, we did actually use D80 in one bin and D254 in the other, then combined them. I kept a carboy of each separated for the study.

So, with the syrah, one bin will be 1118 and the other may be something new, like SYR or ??

4score said:

So, with the syrah, one bin will be 1118 and the other may be something new, like SYR or ??

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Have you considered a wild yeast ferment? To date all my wild fermentations have been better than the cultured yeast. There are a couple of things to consider though.
1) You want to use good fruit. If it's mouldy or damaged its just too risky and you want to hit it with something you know will work well.
2) You need to treat it as well as your normal yeast. I like a light dose of SO2 to kill any bacteria or mould. The yeast will recover. And stick to a good nutrient schedule - they need feeding every bit as much as a cultured yeast.
3) Your 1118 batch is good insurance. If the wild yeast get stuck you can mix the batches to finish it off. And if it goes really badly you've only lost half your wine. (I haven't had one go really badly yet, but I'm sure it can happen.)

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Bruce.

Brub58 said:

Have you considered a wild yeast ferment? To date all my wild fermentations have been better than the cultured yeast. There are a couple of things to consider though.
1) You want to use good fruit. If it's mouldy or damaged its just too risky and you want to hit it with something you know will work well.
2) You need to treat it as well as your normal yeast. I like a light dose of SO2 to kill any bacteria or mould. The yeast will recover. And stick to a good nutrient schedule - they need feeding every bit as much as a cultured yeast.
3) Your 1118 batch is good insurance. If the wild yeast get stuck you can mix the batches to finish it off. And if it goes really badly you've only lost half your wine. (I haven't had one go really badly yet, but I'm sure it can happen.)

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Bruce.

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Thanks Bruce. I would love to try a batch of wild yeast. You hear such horror stories on these boards warning against it though. I just returned from the Rhone Region of France and toured the area. Literally EVERYONE there uses wild yeast! Maybe a small side batch as an experiment.

Where are you located? What varieties have you tried with wild yeast?

Thanks!

I know lots of wineries in WA that use native yeast without incident. But then they have excellent quality (best of the best) fruit. I think that is the key thing here and sometimes the fruit I get looks excellent with great numbers, other times not so much. So I have yet to chance it!

4score said:

Where are you located? What varieties have you tried with wild yeast?

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I'm from Melbourne, Australia, so I have lots of Yarra Valley grapes an hour or so away. I've done this with Merlot, Chardonnay, and Sauv Blanc. I agree about a side batch - half a ton/tonne is a bit much, but a hundred kilos or so would be interesting.

We were sampling some bad wines from a professional on Thursday night at our wine guild meeting caused by difficult ferments from overripe grapes in turn caused by very hot weather and an early/unpredictable harvest. Sounds like you might be getting the same t his year, so be careful. He was discussing blending to 'fix' them, and it was very interesting. I quite liked his final result.