WineXpert Eclipse Lodi Cab - calling all tweakers!

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jgmann67

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Going to start this kit over the weekend and am planning nominal tweaks -

* Fermenting to dry, so, we're skipping the sorbate.

* There's plenty of oak included in the kit, so, if I add anything on this side of the equation, maybe tannin in the finish.

* The kit comes with EC-1118 yeast... Old faithful. I'm going to swap it with something like the BMX-45 (?) or RC-212.

It's cool in the basement (61*) so, we're going to try out a brew belt on the primary.

Making a pilgrimage to the LHBS for supplies in the next couple days. So, what do you think? For those who have done this kit already, what would you have done differently?
 
I've done it twice, the second is still in bulk. First was by the book, it's bottled and coming along nicely. A bit fruity and light on tannins and oak for me. Decent body.

Second one was done with BM 4x4, OG 1.100. Grape pack dumped right into the primary, 2 handfuls of raisins and 3 tsp tannin in secondary. Finished at .993, no sorbate. Had a wine stix in it until I got my barrels, it's now in line for a turn in one of the barrels. Last notes on a carboy sample on 1/18/16 was fruity, light on oak, still a little tart and green, tannins were firm. I'd do 2 tsp tannin if I could do it over, but I believe time will integrate it well.

That's all I got for now, but I like this one.
 
I've done it twice, the second is still in bulk. First was by the book, it's bottled and coming along nicely. A bit fruity and light on tannins and oak for me. Decent body.



Second one was done with BM 4x4, OG 1.100. Grape pack dumped right into the primary, 2 handfuls of raisins and 3 tsp tannin in secondary. Finished at .993, no sorbate. Had a wine stix in it until I got my barrels, it's now in line for a turn in one of the barrels. Last notes on a carboy sample on 1/18/16 was fruity, light on oak, still a little tart and green, tannins were firm. I'd do 2 tsp tannin if I could do it over, but I believe time will integrate it well.



That's all I got for now, but I like this one.


Hmmmm. I've been toying with the idea of skipping the bag, and dumping the grape pack right in. Does that make punching down during primary more difficult?
 
Hmmmm. I've been toying with the idea of skipping the bag, and dumping the grape pack right in. Does that make punching down during primary more difficult?

No, quite the contrary, punching down is much easier than with the bag, it's tough to get that sucker to sink. Plus, you'll be highly accurate on your OG once you stir em in real good. I feel like I get better extraction of tannin, flavor, color, etc.

I bought a brewers bag (beer stuff) that's the size of my primary, when I'm racking to glass near end of fermentation, put it in one bucket and dump must into it. Pull it up, let drip, squeeze, let heavy sediment settle, rack to glass, done. I dump the skins, wash the bag and reuse it.

Only way I do it since my visit to Napa.
 
Johnd, I do it exactly as you do for the same reasons. But to make it less "messy" for me & easier on my back, I first suck say 2/3 of the fermentor out with my vacuum pump & racking cane. I put a mesh bag over the racking cane to prevent it from getting plugged. Then I turn the bag inside out & put it over another bucket into which I pour the remaining 1/3, then squeeze like you do. Works like a charm for me. Roy
 
Johnd, I do it exactly as you do for the same reasons. But to make it less "messy" for me & easier on my back, I first suck say 2/3 of the fermentor out with my vacuum pump & racking cane. I put a mesh bag over the racking cane to prevent it from getting plugged. Then I turn the bag inside out & put it over another bucket into which I pour the remaining 1/3, then squeeze like you do. Works like a charm for me. Roy

First time I dumped all ingredients in loose was nothing but trouble, clogged my racking cane. Put a nylon stocking over it and managed to finish, but it took forever. I hadn't thought the process through and wasn't prepared for how to handle pressing the skins and had quite a mess, but got it done. After that, I went back to using the bag in primary.

During my Napa trip this year (we went after the crush when things settled down) I had the opportunity to sit and talk with two of the head winemakers at some smaller wineries. I thought it odd, but neither had any idea that the whole world of kits even existed. Discussing the process, several couldn't understand why the skins wouldn't go in loose, for the same reasons I gave earlier. After that, I thought through the process, spent 20 bucks for an extra bucket and a mesh bag (all reusable stuff) and never put them in the bag again. Simple process..........
 
I add 1 tsp tannins to all my red kits. They seem to be short on tannins, but you can easily go overboard. I have fermentation tannins, not finishing tannins. Not sure what the difference is, but there must be something different. Or its just a way to make us buy something else!

I like your grape pack method, I think I will use that on my next kit.
 
No, quite the contrary, punching down is much easier than with the bag, it's tough to get that sucker to sink. Plus, you'll be highly accurate on your OG once you stir em in real good. I feel like I get better extraction of tannin, flavor, color, etc.

I bought a brewers bag (beer stuff) that's the size of my primary, when I'm racking to glass near end of fermentation, put it in one bucket and dump must into it. Pull it up, let drip, squeeze, let heavy sediment settle, rack to glass, done. I dump the skins, wash the bag and reuse it.

Only way I do it since my visit to Napa.

Shopping list for LHBS:

* one primary bucket.
* one brewer's bag.

This is brilliant.
 
You could also use a simple paint straining bag - available at your local big box store.
 
I bought a brewers bag (beer stuff) that's the size of my primary, when I'm racking to glass near end of fermentation, put it in one bucket and dump must into it. Pull it up, let drip, squeeze, let heavy sediment settle, rack to glass, done. I dump the skins, wash the bag and reuse it.

Only way I do it since my visit to Napa.

Shopping list for LHBS:

* one primary bucket.
* one brewer's bag.

This is brilliant.

Yeah, I may be on board to try it this way, too! Like Johnd, my first attempts had the skins loose in primary, and racking was a bear. I since have only used the bag. This may be the way to go!
 
Yeah, I may be on board to try it this way, too! Like Johnd, my first attempts had the skins loose in primary, and racking was a bear. I since have only used the bag. This may be the way to go!

The only alternative I can come up with is to use a skimmer to get the fruit out and then rack to the carboy. But, you'd lose a good bit of juice that way. Hadn't thought of pouring through a straining bag to another primary container. If I can avoid spillage, it will work wonderfully.

I have the Selection Amarone on deck after this one. Less grape in the pack (1.6 L vs. 2.0 L in the Cab). But, I'll be dropping some raisins in there, too.

See, now I'm getting all excited. Can't wait.
 
The only alternative I can come up with is to use a skimmer to get the fruit out and then rack to the carboy. But, you'd lose a good bit of juice that way. Hadn't thought of pouring through a straining bag to another primary container. If I can avoid spillage, it will work wonderfully.

I have the Selection Amarone on deck after this one. Less grape in the pack (1.6 L vs. 2.0 L in the Cab). But, I'll be dropping some raisins in there, too.

See, now I'm getting all excited. Can't wait.

I've done it this way 10 or 15 times without spilling a drop. Just a couple of tips, fold your bag down the outside of your bucket and put a large rubber band on it to hold it in place, or have an assistant hold it. Stir up all of your lees first. When you start your pour, don't do it timidly, trying to just dribble it in there at first, POUR IT, so it doesn't dribble down the front of the bucket you are pouring from. The pour takes 5 or 6 seconds to complete and the bag inside the second bucket keeps it from splashing out. Easy as pie as long as you can handle the 50 pound primary.
 
any reason you could not just use a paint strainer bag in primary, and pull it out after primary fermentation is complete? Same concept, just eliminates a step.

I bought an AI1 so i could get away from lifting fermenters.
 
any reason you could not just use a paint strainer bag in primary, and pull it out after primary fermentation is complete? Same concept, just eliminates a step.

I bought an AI1 so i could get away from lifting fermenters.

I tried putting the bag in first once, it worked ok until fermentation got rolling in earnest. At that point, the CO2 was causing the bag to float up with the cap and getting it all pushed back down was quite a time consuming challenge, and it came right back up within half an hour. I weighted the bag down with a sanitized glass pie plate to get finished, which worked ok, but went back to the pouring method after that.

If you don't want to, or can't lift a fermenter, the weighted bag is certainly an option. If you had a stainless steel hoop that would fit inside the bag and bucket, holding it down and in shape, but removable for squeezing, that would be a cool and easy method to try...................
 
Shopping list for LHBS:

* one primary bucket.
* one brewer's bag.

This is brilliant.

The brewers bag I got a Scotzin's last fall was around $9 - used it with my Dornfelder grapes and butt bucket press, worked really well. Kind of tough to clean. Rinsed, squeezed out, let it dry. Then a few days later shook it violently, then turned inside out and did it again. Got pretty clean. I'll soak in some StarSan next time I go to use it.

Just picked up some paint strainer bags at Lowes in Mechanicsburg yesterday, I think they were $3.52 for two. Nice thing about those is that they are cheap enough that I toss them after a few uses when they get hard to clean. Both should stretch over your bucket you are going to purchase.
 
That's it, I'm inventing a contraption to fit over the primary and punch down the cap during fermentation, and to submerge the cap at first racking. Basically a coffee French press idea. Patent is pending so back off :)
 
Since I feel partially responsible for the hijacking of this worthwhile thread, now that we've worn out the topic of dumping all of the ingredients straight into the primary, how about some more thoughts on enhancements for jgmann67 and his upcoming Lodi Ranch 11 wine??
 
Since I feel partially responsible for the hijacking of this worthwhile thread, now that we've worn out the topic of dumping all of the ingredients straight into the primary, how about some more thoughts on enhancements for jgmann67 and his upcoming Lodi Ranch 11 wine??

No worries. This discussion is a good one. I'm learning a lot.

So, I've got adding some tannin (maybe), subbing out the yeast; and letting the grapes run free in the primary. What else?
 
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No worries. This discussion is a good one. I'm learning a lot.

So, I've got adding some tannin (maybe), subbing out the yeast; and letting the grapes run free in the primary. What else?

Those are the same things I did in my second one, and as I said before, I think the 3 tsp tannins in secondary may have been too much, but I really won't know for quite a while.

Which yeast have you decided to go with? I think you were considering BM 45 or RC 212. I've used and been pleased with the 212, from what I've read, the BM 45 as it is nitrogen hungry and can produce H2S if in poor nutrient conditions. The BM 45, however, is said to increase mouthfeel and improved color stability. I'm sure you can feed it enough. Have you had good luck with it??
 
Which yeast have you decided to go with? I think you were considering BM 45 or RC 212. I've used and been pleased with the 212, from what I've read, the BM 45 as it is nitrogen hungry and can produce H2S if in poor nutrient conditions. The BM 45, however, is said to increase mouthfeel and improved color stability. I'm sure you can feed it enough. Have you had good luck with it??


Up to this point, I've only used the yeast provided in the kit. I've used the RC-212 before and it did very well fermenting to dry. But, I can't tell you what it is like vs. another yeast because I'm still too much of a noob.

I figure if I go with the BM-45 and it starts sputtering, I can always drop the EC-1118 (as was done in the Forza) and bring it home that way.
 

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