Sour taste and acid

I have been waiting for my Cabernet to finish MLF. It. Has consistently read 160 for the last three or four weeks. I have added another inoculation of MLB and nutrient. Last night I tasted the wine and it taste very sour. I decided to just go ahead and rack it. I tried to take a acid test and the results seemed indicate that the acid was very high. Previously it was at .7 I don't know if my chemicals have gone bad or not. My pH was 3.72. My question is should I just leave it alone or should I try and do something to lower the acid? G

First, you should have added this to the post you already had going that had the information about the MLF strain and temperature. It looks like you are at about 4 weeks since adding your MLB. You used CH16 and added it again. Your temp is 70*F or higher.

What was your initial pH and TA readings? Are you stirring it up at least once a week if not some more? Did you add any Kmeta before pitching the MLB? If so that slows the whole process down a bit.

My first MLB showed no signs of activity and took 6-8 weeks to finish. I've read on this forum it taking up to three months to complete, so patience, patience, patience. Give it time, keep out of the carboys and let nature take it's course.

My current two MLF's are showing some bubble activity, but I used a different strain (VP41 1st time - no activity noticed, CH35 - bubbles and slow airlock activity noticed).

I did not add kmeta before mlf. My Acid was .7 to start I did have a ph meter to start. My other wine went through the mlf just fine and every was done at the same time. I am just going to leave it alone. Yes I was stirring twice a week since I started.

If you are using the little test strips for malic content, be careful, they can be difficult to read depending on the type of light. Also they have an expiration date to watch. If the PH of your wine was high before starting ML fermentation, it can go quickly, sometimes in two to three weeks. Once I started using chromatography to follow the MLF, the activity became much more clear.

stickman said:

If you are using the little test strips for malic content, be careful, they can be difficult to read depending on the type of light. Also they have an expiration date to watch. If the PH of your wine was high before starting ML fermentation, it can go quickly, sometimes in two to three weeks. Once I started using chromatography to follow the MLF, the activity became much more clear.

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I was going to suggest buying a chromatography kit, but not every one can afford one. I bought one from PI wines and it is very easy to use. I got smart this go around and did a test before I pitched the MLB so I had something to compare it to later on down the MLF road. I know some use taste as their guide, but I'm just not that experienced to be confident enough to add the Kmeta and stop the process, so the test kit gives me peace of mind.

So I just tested my TA and confirmed with ph meter. The TA IS .9. The Ph is 3.72 so I don't know what to do. I racked this weekend and pitched kmeta. Should I try lowering the acid with calcium carbonate? I've tried two doses of mlf over the last five weeks and given that I added kmeta don't think I can try again. Thanks for any guidance.

zadvocate said:

So I just tested my TA and confirmed with ph meter. The TA IS .9. The Ph is 3.72 so I don't know what to do. I racked this weekend and pitched kmeta. Should I try lowering the acid with calcium carbonate? I've tried two doses of mlf over the last five weeks and given that I added kmeta don't think I can try again. Thanks for any guidance.

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Not quite sure how your TA started at 7 g/L and jumped up to 9 g/L? I wasn't keeping my normal solution refrigerated and had to get a new batch after my first solution was only 4 months old. Your TA rising doesn't make any sense to me.

I used a TA kit and have not stored the chemicals in the refrigerator. I just bought it from more wine a few weeks ago. I didn't think they needed refrigerated. The wine does taste very bitter though.

zadvocate said:

I used a TA kit and have not stored the chemicals in the refrigerator. I just bought it from more wine a few weeks ago. I didn't think they needed refrigerated. The wine does taste very bitter though.

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That could simply be the tannins in the wine. I would not describe bitterness as a function of PH, rather tartness or sourness.

Here is an experiment.. Take some of the wine and aerate the crap out of it. Let it stand for 30 minutes (open) and then taste. If you taste a noticeable decreased bitterness, then it is most likely the tannins in the wine. This will soften with age, but a couple of good splash rackings could speed the process along.

John, I misspoke, it is sour tasting. My concern is the acid level. I am going to use calcium carbonate. That being said I will try your experiment first. Thanks

I did what you suggested and it did taste better and smelled better. Still a bit tired but I think I'll wait a while and if before bottling it is still tart maybe I'll lower the acid then?

zadvocate said:

I did what you suggested and it did taste better and smelled better. Still a bit tired but I think I'll wait a while and if before bottling it is still tart maybe I'll lower the acid then?

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That is always an option, but I would simply give it more time. Check it again in 3 months or so.

So I tested the SO2, PH, and TA last night. 23 ppm, 4.13 and 7.5. I added a 1/4 tsp of Kmeta. I plan on bottling in the next few months. Any suggestions ? The ph is high and the acid is a bit high. I don't know if there is anything I can do other than just accept it. It tastes ok , but it is a rather light but I think that's because it's from a juice bucket.

Ph and TA can be confusing, It almost seems your going the wrong way. How did you go from pH 3.72 to 4.13? Shouldn't you be going the other way, like around 3.4 for MLF?


Edit: calcium carbonate can add an earthiness to the wine, if that's not your desire use k-biCarb. for deacidification in a finished wine. (TA)... By adding K-meta you've probably hindered yourself from going either way.

Dave,
I made a mistake in adding this to this thread. The wine I am referring to is not the Cab that I referred to at the top of the thread, its a Zin that has had a high PH in the begging (4.25). This is my first year making wine and I bought two juice buckets, one cab and one zin. The Zin has had a high PH and high TA. I was just wondering if there was anything I should do other than just wait to bottle.

My apologies for adding it to this thread.

I think I would leave this in a carboy, keep a eye on the so2. this will give you a chance to bring your pH down if that's what your wanting to do.

High pH wines don't age well, nor do they keep the nasties at bay. I would think at 4.13 it would taste bland or flabby for my taste. How do you feel?
I haven't made wine from grapes or juice pails either.

I just took a smart taste and it was unremarkable, wasn't bad and it wasn't great. I'll try it again in a few weeks

Define "unremarkable". What quality is the wine lacking? Is it too sharp? Is it not sharp enough?

I would suggest that you conduct an acid bench test. Given the high PH, you probably could improve things by adjusting the acid.

Here is a link to a pretty good method..


http://www.valleyvintner.com/Tips&Links/AcidBenchTrial.pdf

I ran a smaller bench trial. Using one ML, two ML, and three ML additions. The 3 ml brought the ph from 4.21 to 3.75 and it had a slight sour taste. But it wasn't bad. I have to buy more tartaric acid. Also I had add a half bottle of Charles Shaw Shiraz to bring the carboy back up. So I think I will buy som acid and add it to the wine and be done with it. I'm not expecting much from this wine but at least I can chalk this up to a learning experience.

Go slow and dial it in to your taste. As long as your in the carboy, time to dial it in is in your favor. When you get it there, aging should take care of the sourness. Keep safe SO2 levels and it will all fall into place.