Honor system
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Floandgary
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The irony of this whole fuss about nothing is that Software can be had for just about any digitally dependent vehicle which allows that vehicle to be operated in a more efficient/performance enhanced mode than is allowed by law!! Just flip a switch come inspection time
The irony of this whole fuss about nothing is that Software can be had for just about any digitally dependent vehicle which allows that vehicle to be operated in a more efficient/performance enhanced mode than is allowed by law!! Just flip a switch come inspection time
But don't you think that is just a mite different from millions of people unknowingly cheating in that way, people who otherwise would NOT choose to flout the rules?
Floandgary
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Most certainly different "numbers wise". The only ones seemingly offended are the relative few who had the power to have their agenda become law. While maybe well intended, the case most often is all about the $$$$... Ironic all the same! Makes for good banter at the fireside
jswordy
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It was a joke!!!
But since we went serious on this, VW's complete lack of ethics in cheating an emissions test when all other manufacturers have had to do the R&D and create the proper technologies to comply, all the while touting the excellence in engineering and design of VW's diesel engine and its ability to comply with the regulations in advertising, is appalling.
Add to that the fact that the entire scheme was known in the highest upper management levels of the company, and it is mind-boggling.
Top that with the fact that millions of customers, who bought in good faith and now are owners of these vehicles, have seen their value now degraded by revelations of this practice (and very well may see their performance degraded, since a fix may require dialing back the injector rate) and the full scope of the fraud becomes apparent. If performance is dramatically affected, as some experts say it must be, then the rapid depreciation of the cars' value will be permanent. That amounts ethically, in my view, to a theft from the consumer.
Consequently, the class action suit phase will be enormous. The damage to the reputation of the company is exceedingly huge. And the fact that it has halted sales of three of its most popular models until all the 2015 and 2016 inventory has been brought into compliance is a major immediate hit to its bottom line.
In my view, VW is going to get what it deserves.
But since we went serious on this, VW's complete lack of ethics in cheating an emissions test when all other manufacturers have had to do the R&D and create the proper technologies to comply, all the while touting the excellence in engineering and design of VW's diesel engine and its ability to comply with the regulations in advertising, is appalling.
Add to that the fact that the entire scheme was known in the highest upper management levels of the company, and it is mind-boggling.
Top that with the fact that millions of customers, who bought in good faith and now are owners of these vehicles, have seen their value now degraded by revelations of this practice (and very well may see their performance degraded, since a fix may require dialing back the injector rate) and the full scope of the fraud becomes apparent. If performance is dramatically affected, as some experts say it must be, then the rapid depreciation of the cars' value will be permanent. That amounts ethically, in my view, to a theft from the consumer.
Consequently, the class action suit phase will be enormous. The damage to the reputation of the company is exceedingly huge. And the fact that it has halted sales of three of its most popular models until all the 2015 and 2016 inventory has been brought into compliance is a major immediate hit to its bottom line.
In my view, VW is going to get what it deserves.
wineforfun
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Very well said Jim.
Karma is a b&tch.
Karma is a b&tch.
And also different in intention. In my moral universe, intent counts.
I disagree. As someone who breathes air, I am offended. As someone who admired VW, I am offended. Are you saying that you do not think that emissions regulations are desirable?
Floandgary
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Lemme just say that there is a little CYNIC in all of us (maybe more in some than others). Bureaucracies grow faster than weeds and are soon outside of their original premise. Again,, all about $$$$$$$. That's all I have say,, thanks for allowing!!
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Los Angeles, 1948:
I see your point - and I agree with what I perceive as your intention. If there are no rules, man rapidly destroys things in pursuit of profit.
I cannot speak to the issue in LA, however when I worked in an auto shop in Modesto, CA fifteen years ago there was no smog requirements for many of the northern coastal towns. The wind blew off the ocean and pushed the smog into the valley. There were strict regulations in the valley. If the issue was really the dirty air, then why where the coastal towns exempt from smog regulations? (Perhaps this has changed - I left California ten years ago.)
From a cynical point of view, one could say the lack of smog requirement was tied up in issues of campaign contributions, tax dollars, and power.
The other side is reflected in the picture you posted. There is an air quality problem in California that requires rules and care to manage.
Like you say, intent matters. What I see in our corporations, laws, politicians, and media is a lack of honorable, ethical intent. The name over the door, the claimed position, and / or the political alliance does not appear to make any difference.
The irony of this whole fuss about nothing is that Software can be had for just about any digitally dependent vehicle which allows that vehicle to be operated in a more efficient/performance enhanced mode than is allowed by law!! Just flip a switch come inspection time
Most states determine the pollutants at idle. The aftermarket programs do not affect those settings and will pass with the tune loaded into the vehicles ECU. I had a tune on my truck for 6 years and the inspection never noticed it.
What VW did was to switch programs to the clean one WHEN the test device was hooked up, but not when it was running normally. Apples to bananas...
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So the big question is "will they survive this and how soon before the company turns around"? In other words, "is this a stock buying opportunity"?
jswordy
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I would say it will be 5 years. VW will survive, but the lawsuit phase will mean the company will keep having to reserve cash for payouts while suffering falling sales. The immediate crisis is the worst of it, as they have crimped their sales. When those cars do re-enter the market, they will not be hot sellers again right away.
If you have a long enough time horizon, it could be a nice stock investment. Of course, that's all relative to whether the money could have been better invested in a quicker turnaround. There are many bargains to be had in the current market, and perhaps many more yet to come if global recession predictions come true.
If you're looking for a car, might be a good time to make a deal when those fixed vehicles are released again for sale.
Floandgary
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So ,, in the end, "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY"
Floandgary
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jswordy
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So ,, in the end, "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY"
No, it's not "all about the money." It's about obeying the law and protecting the environment. It's about not lying to your customers and to regulators. It's about not cheating people who on the basis of the information you supply think they are buying one thing, but are really buying quite another. The money may be an ancillary means of keeping score, but it is not the primary concern.
I do agree with you in this aspect, though. In every case where the attitude is that it is "all about the money" there are zero morals or ethics involved. It is f*** or be f***ed. Caveat emptor, so screw you, buyer - right? At Volkswagen, it was indeed "all about the money." They saw that their engine, into which they had invested much R&D money, was not able to do what they had set out to do. So they tossed ethics and morals and their duty to obey the law as a good corporate citizen out the window and it became "all about the money" for them.
Consequently, as always happens sooner or later in a moral and ethical vacuum when it is "all about the money," people got hurt badly and the company was severely damaged.
There are predatory people in this world who are constantly calculating in their heads the monetary costs of their cutting corners, being unethical and having no morality. They are always working on whether any profits from such behavior will outweigh any potential losses from it. I believe these type folks were in charge at VW. To them, it was simply a game of sums. Beware of anyone whose attitude is that everything is "all about the money." Guard your wallet!
BernardSmith
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I guess my thinking is that anyone's income and/or prestige that rests on short term gains (ie $$$ or deutchmarks) has every incentive to go for those short term gains and has no incentive to see or work for the bigger picture. So we can demand that VW shoulder all blame and responsibility for their criminal behavior but such behavior is in fact favored by how we organize business and how we reward both corporations and their senior management. So, expecting companies to work towards the bigger picture (climate, customers, ethics, what have you ) while we measure and reward incredibly short term activities (the next quarter's profits vs revenues) suggests to me that we all collude (because of our passive inactivity and lack of opposition) in such practices even if we may individually think that we are above this. When we point a finger at VW three of our fingers are pointing at ourselves.. Our expectations, our demands simply encourage such practices. Our pension funds, included.
And I do think that VW should be compelled to buy back every single one of the vehicles they sold that was fixed in this way (not sure what impact that may have , of course, on thousands of hourly workers who may then find themselves out of work as VW contracts- and what the impact that that may have on the towns and cities that house those unemployed workers... )...Life may be tough at the top but it is a hellava lot tougher at the bottom.
I will get off my soap box and get back to work.
And I do think that VW should be compelled to buy back every single one of the vehicles they sold that was fixed in this way (not sure what impact that may have , of course, on thousands of hourly workers who may then find themselves out of work as VW contracts- and what the impact that that may have on the towns and cities that house those unemployed workers... )...Life may be tough at the top but it is a hellava lot tougher at the bottom.
I will get off my soap box and get back to work.
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BernardSmith
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I dunno. Someone once wrote - History repeats itself: First as a tragedy , then as a farce.
Floandgary
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Just to be clear,,,, let's not let VW stand alone in this type of scandal! We have our own!!! GM as the latest and I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find a "Mega-company" that hasn't, to some extent, skirted the "moral obligation" floor in HQ on their way to "Finance" or the Boardroom! From my point of view, any outfit that holds a public trust and chooses to take their chances in a courtroom has decided that "It's all about the money"!! Guess I'm cynical enough to think that there was No "OOPS" phase in play. Which BTW is what I was driving at with this whole VW thing... That's it for me!!! Won't have to hold your breath long, there'll be another one before ya know it..
