Which Red varietal - local vineyard

By accident I just found a small vineyard that sells grapes to the public that is only 18 miles away from my home. I've never tried any of these, and that is where I will start once I get paid next week (and can afford a few bottles of wine).

I'm looking for anyone who has made wine from one of these grapes and your impressions, good or bad. They are all the same price ($1.35 per lb). They are Dornfelder, Regent, Noiret and Cabernet Franc.

I can get them by the pound, no need for whole lugs. Also, I know it depends on the year and variety, how many pounds per finished gallon should I aim for, is 15 to 20lbs in the ballpark?

I can also get several white varieties and have narrowed it down to Vidal (.65/lb), Chardonel (.70/lb) and Seyval (.60/lb). I'll probably let my wife choose the white variety and from the descriptions I've read she'll probably go for the Chardonel.

Thanks,

Craig,

That is a good find!!

I have had a Maryland commercial Vidal and liked it. Also made Californian Cabernet Franc and liked it.

If I recall it's 100 pounds of grapes for 6 gallons with the usual caveats. After racking, you'll be more in the range of 5 gallons unless you top off or use some other means to take up space.

Heather

I'd go with the Cabernet Franc. But I've not had any of the other varieties you mentioned.

In my experience, 36lbs gets me about 2.5 gallons of wine - on average. For a 6 gallon batch, I'd just keep it simple and go with 120lbs. That way you've got some top up wine.

heatherd said:

I have had a Maryland commercial Vidal and liked it. Also made Californian Cabernet Franc and liked it.

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When my wife and I were at Harford this Spring, she did a tasting that had a sample of both their Vidal and Chardonnay in it, and she liked both. Just not so sure how close in taste a Chardonel is to a Chardonnay, so she gets to choose.

I'm leaning towards the Cabernet Franc since I was thinking of that one if I ordered juice/grapes from California. Just intrigued by the other varieties he has, guess there are other years (And next year I won't buy 3 expensive kits in the Summer and use up my Fall juice money).

Also like the idea of a 40 minute round trip verses 3 hours if I need to make multiple trips to pick up varieties that ripen at different times.

Definitely go with the Chardonel for the white, Cab Franc can be good but if not ripe can be a problem child with herbaceous notes so be careful with that one. Noiret I am growing and it is one of the best cold hardy varietals out there. Very similar to a Syrah with lots of spice/pepper notes.

ibglowin said:

Definitely go with the Chardonel for the white, Cab Franc can be good but if not ripe can be a problem child with herbaceous notes so be careful with that one. Noiret I am growing and it is one of the best cold hardy varietals out there. Very similar to a Syrah with lots of spice/pepper notes.

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Mike, thank you for the Noiret information.

As far as the Cab Franc goes, is there a certain brix that once achieved the amount of herbaceous notes can be minimized?

The owner is very good at returning emails and I'm sure he'd give me that information if I requested it. I should probably just email him and ask him what brix he plans to pick it at anyway.

I have enjoyed commercial Dornfelders, mostly in Germany. They were very approachable, medium bodied wines (like a Pinot Noir). Very pleasant and drinkable, fruity, with moderate tannins, and a little spice.

The Source of All Knowledge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornfelder) confirms this impression, but notes that vinification style is shifting towards deeper-bodied wines. (Evidently, the grape itself is capable of producing a dark, fuller-bodied wine, but the prevailing style was to vinify them to make a lighter wine.)

sour_grapes said:

I have enjoyed commercial Dornfelders, mostly in Germany. They were very approachable, medium bodied wines (like a Pinot Noir). Very pleasant and drinkable, fruity, with moderate tannins, and a little spice.

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Paul, I'll have to search our State Store database and see if they offer any commercial examples. That is the variety that I'm most curious about and have read about the deep dark luscious reds they can (sorry, had to mop up some drool) make. Can't say I've seen other places offering that one or the Regent, which is another German red variety.

If this place has quality grapes I'll eventually make all of them (he says he has 30+ varieties, but I'm guessing some of the vines are rather new and not producing much yet).

Had a Chardonel at a winery down in Missouri. Not a big fan of whites but really like that one.

ceeaton said:

Paul, I'll have to search our State Store database and see if they offer any commercial examples.

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You might also try a Blaufrankisch, which is also known as Lemberger. This is a grandparent of Dornfelder, and, to my palate, they are similar. I know that there are commercial Blaufrankisch/Lemberger wines out of Washington. Hogue, maybe?

sour_grapes said:

...Blaufrankisch...

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Won't even try to pronounce that one, but thanks I'll add it to my search.

This is turning out to be quite fun and informational, thank you all for your input as well as those who haven't "inputted" yet.

sour_grapes said:

You might also try a Blaufrankisch, which is also known as Lemberger. This is a grandparent of Dornfelder, and, to my palate, they are similar. I know that there are commercial Blaufrankisch/Lemberger wines out of Washington. Hogue, maybe?

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A few places here in N. VA are growing it.

Oooh, found 9 bottles of Valckenberg Dornfelder Rheinhessen
Germany 2012 in Lemoyne. Might not be able to retrieve one until Saturday.

ceeaton said:

Won't even try to pronounce that one,

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It is pronounced just like it is spelled!

Brix measures sugar amount but herbaceous notes are caused by a chemical compound methoxypyrazine. Many things can cause it or minimize it. Main thing is physiological ripeness IWO you want nice brown seeds and not green seeds in your Cabernet.

Here is a list of things to avoid:

1. High moisture content in soils before and after veraison delays methoxypyrazine degradation.
2. Sun exposure to the bunches speeds methoxypyrazine reduction.
3. Removal of leaf shading leaves, done well before veraison, can decrease methoxypyrazine.
4. North –south row orientation give the best results for sun exposure; morning and late afternoon exposure is preferred.
5. Methoxypyrazine decline after veraison follows malic acid decline. Warm nights may also assist in methoxypyrazine decline.
6. Unripe seeds have high levels of methoxypyrazine. Berry sensory analysis before harvest can reveal lack of seed ripeness.

ceeaton said:

As far as the Cab Franc goes, is there a certain brix that once achieved the amount of herbaceous notes can be minimized?

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Okay Mike,

So we've had a really moist summer. Has been a little less moist lately except for that 2-4 inch rain event we had last Thursday. We have also had more cool nights than normal. I think it was 54*F when I took my walk this morning. Lot's of high 50s and low 60s this August. And I don't control his planting orientation or his leaf removal prior to coloring up.

Assuming I get a batch that has a heavy herbaceous note, will aging time in the carboy diminish that?

Thanks for all of the information, I'm loving this!

Unfortunately not so much. I bought 3 lugs of Cab Franc from Lodi, AVA back in 2011 which was the worst (coolest) vintage ever on the West coast. The grapes had plenty of brix but when fermented smelled of nothing but bell pepper. Tried everything in the book to get rid of it. Nothing really worked. Bentonite and extra oak helped somewhat. Only thing I could do was to blend that wine in small amounts across 7 different wines to get rid of it. Unless you have had a warm going season wherever you are getting the grapes from I would steer clear of Cab Franc.

Thanks Mike. I thought that I read somewhere that Cab Franc is often confused taste wise with an unripe Cab Sauv because even in a good year it has some of that green bell pepper flavor and aroma.

Dornfelder and Noiret are looking better and better all the time!

Wife wants Chardonel this year and maybe Vidal infused with peaches next year.

sour_grapes said:

I know that there are commercial/Lemberger wines out of Washington. Hogue, maybe?

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I used to drink a Lemberger out of Kiona (Yakima Valley) quite a few years ago. They used to have it at Costco and it was around $9 and now I belive they have their Cab which also used to be about $10 now it it is a lot more. The Lemberger was spicy and had hints of pepper, the first time I had it was with fresh lightly smoked Elk in a juniper berry rub. I was a good match. Sadly I have never been to the winery but I may need to do a field trip

ceeaton said:

Okay Mike,

So we've had a really moist summer. Has been a little less moist lately except for that 2-4 inch rain event we had last Thursday. We have also had more cool nights than normal. I think it was 54*F when I took my walk this morning. Lot's of high 50s and low 60s this August. And I don't control his planting orientation or his leaf removal prior to coloring up.

Assuming I get a batch that has a heavy herbaceous note, will aging time in the carboy diminish that?

Thanks for all of the information, I'm loving this!

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If the seeds are green, you should try to separate them from the must several times during fermentation (delestage). One way to do this is to transfer your cap before a punchdown to another fermentation vessel and then strain the juice as you transfer to leave the seeds behind