Fermenting vessel preference?

Hey folks,

I have severl 54L demis and about 10 5 gallon carboys. Do you have a preference as to which vessel type you ferment your juice with? I suppose on main disadvantage with the large demis is that the weight makes them more difficult to handle. Does the volume of juice affect the quality of the fermentation process, in other words, does a larger volume of fermenting juice have a positive affect or does the vessel size not matter in order to achieve a proper fermentation?

Thanks!

I usually primary in a bucket fermenter, as it's easier when using fruit. I secondary in a glass carbouy, but I'm slowly making the transition from glass to plastic carbouys.
Regards, GF.

I use a bucket for primary, and I would definitely prefer that to a demi or a carboy. I do not believe there is a single advantage to using a necked glass vessel for this purpose.

I think that, within reasonable limits*, the volume does not affect the outcome.

*The "reasonable limits" part refers to temperature changes due to the fermentation reaction (which gives off heat). If your vessel is huge (commercial scale), you will have to remove some of that heat, whereas if you try to ferment in a teacup, you will have to make sure your must stays warm enough for the yeast.

Bucket primary works best for me, but that's probably because I homebrewed before I started making wine and am used to doing it that way...

gratus_fermentatio said:

I usually primary in a bucket fermenter, as it's easier when using fruit. I secondary in a glass carbouy, but I'm slowly making the transition from glass to plastic carbouys.
Regards, GF.

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Do you also plan to age in plastic?
Plastic carboy seems to work well for fermentation too

gratus_fermentatio said:

I usually primary in a bucket fermenter, as it's easier when using fruit. I secondary in a glass carbouy, but I'm slowly making the transition from glass to plastic carbouys.
Regards, GF.

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Don't think you'll be getting many thumbs-up on the plastic carboys. If you're planning on aging for a length of time, I'd stick with traditional oak barrel or glass carboy. JMHO

Siwash said:

does a larger volume of fermenting juice have a positive affect or does the vessel size not matter in order to achieve a proper fermentation?

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I have only done 3 and 6 gallon wine kits, and 1 gallon beer kits.

IMHO, it is important to size the container to the volume being fermented. While air space is good in the beginning, once you get a few days in, you want to start limiting head space. Also, you want enough head space to keep a blowoff from happening (foam escapes the bucket). About 1/3 to 1/2 of the liquid volume in air space is good.

3-6 gallons is a nice minimum quantity. Significantly larger fermentation poses its own challenges: 1) If you have skins, stirring a lot of skins is a problem; 2) If you are in a warm location, keeping the temp down might be an issue, especially for whites (better to ferment whites at a lower temp); 3) cleaning/sanitizing the container.

For cleaning purposes, you want a container that is easy to clean. Wide mouth, no nooks and crannies (does not easily scratch), etc.

For a 6 gallon batch, I use a 7.5 gallon plastic pail, and remove 1 gallon of must to add back later in the ferment.

Just to clarify, when we are talking about "primary fermentation", are we referring to the fermentation that occurs with maceration (i.e.grape skins, pulp, etc) with juices post crushing. If that is the case I do crush and ferment in large plastic vats.

Siwash said:

Just to clarify, when we are talking about "primary fermentation", are we referring to the fermentation that occurs with maceration (i.e.grape skins, pulp, etc) with juices post crushing. If that is the case I do crush and ferment in large plastic vats.

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Yes, that is correct. When we refer to primary fermentation, that is what we are talking about. Until the SG is down to about 1.010 or less.

After that, we tend to speak of transferring to "secondary," which is generally a glass carboy. There is some room for confusion here, as we are still speaking of the alcoholic fermentation process, as opposed to MLF. The way I perceive it, we are speaking about the "secondary fermentation vessel"; that is, the word "secondary" modifies the word "vessel," not the word "fermentation." We all acknowledge that, after transferring to secondary, it it just completing the alcoholic fermentation that was started in the bucket ("primary").

sour_grapes said:

Yes, that is correct. When we refer to primary fermentation, that is what we are talking about. Until the SG is down to about 1.010 or less.

After that, we tend to speak of transferring to "secondary," which is generally a glass carboy. There is some room for confusion here, as we are still speaking of the alcoholic fermentation process, as opposed to MLF. The way I perceive it, we are speaking about the "secondary fermentation vessel"; that is, the word "secondary" modifies the word "vessel," not the word "fermentation." We all acknowledge that, after transferring to secondary, it it just completing the alcoholic fermentation that was started in the bucket ("primary").

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Okay, then I do believe I follow what others do. The way I was taught by my dad (he learned it back in Italy as a kid from his father), this is what we do:

-In the maceration process (primary) we leave the crushed grapes (skins, some stems, juice) in contact for about 6 or 7 days (he prefers only 4 days since he prefers lighter wines)
*we haven't added yeast in the past having relied on the natural wild yeast and it seems to work but I may add commercial yeast this year*
-we punch it down a few of times per day
-we press then move the juice from our garage to the "secondary" fermentation vessels (this year I am trying the carboys over the 54L demis since they are more manageable to handle). He prefers larger plastic vats that he seals with airlocks
-we then leave the "almost wine" to ferment for about another 4 weeks (keeping temps in low 70s for our reds)
-we rack after the four week 2nd fermentation process into either 54L demis or carboys
-we rack about 2 more times over the course of the next few months
-I like to let it bulk age for a year before bottling but sometimes sooner if wine runs low!

Did I miss anything? Would you correct anything in this process?

I would add (just to be thorough)..

1) Add an initial dose of k-meta 24 hours prior to pitching yeast - This will help and suppress wild yeast or other contaminants.

2) Add yeast nutrient of choice - This will foster a healthy fermentation free from H2S issues.

3) check and adjust PH of wine - Help protect the wine and also prevents oxidation.

JohnT said:

I would add (just to be thorough)..

1) Add an initial dose of k-meta 24 hours prior to pitching yeast - This will help and suppress wild yeast or other contaminants.

2) Add yeast nutrient of choice - This will foster a healthy fermentation free from H2S issues.

3) check and adjust PH of wine - Help protect the wine and also prevents oxidation.

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Great.. never thought of adding yeast nutrients... PH meters are available at wine shops? how do you adjust? What do u add?

I am gong to be making cab suav and merlot. What yeast should I go with?

Siwash said:

PH meters are available at wine shops? how do you adjust? What do u add?

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With acid there are really 2 different measurements that are used, PH and TA..


PH measures all over acid strength. Since different forms of acid can exist in wine, PH takes into account the fact that some acids are stronger than others. PH measures the all over ionic strength of your wine.

TA (or Total Acidity) measures the all over weight of the acids present in your wine. Readings are usually expressed in terms of Grams per liter of wine. For example, a TA reading of .65gpl translates to .65 grams of acid per liter of wine.



PH is the most specific measurement you can make, however to get good results you can not really rely on cheap PH strips. Instead, you need the use of a quality PH meter and they can be very expensive (usually over $100) and requires PH buffer solutions (2), and some storage solution, which further increases the cost.

There are times when life is not confusing enough. It is for this reason that the powers that be made the PH scale. The PH scale runs from 0 to 14, where 7 is considered neutral, 0 is purely acidic, and 14 is purely alkaline (like lye). In other words, the HIGHER the ph, the LOWER the acid. A typical PH for wine is around 3.4 to 3.5.

Measuring TA is a much cheaper solution. An TA acid test kit usually costs under $10 and is fairly easy to use. Although not exact, TA is a surprisingly good measure of a wine's acidity since the blend of acid in most wines are somewhat similar.

Figuring out the adjustment of acid needed using a PH measurement is an almost impossible task. It involves a rather high degree of math that is, frankly, beyond me.

When adjusting acid, most wine makers that I know use the TA measurement as a guide while paying attention to the PH level. If the PH is low (or acidic) and the TA is low, then you may want to maintain a lower than normal TA (or acid weight). (For red wines, a desired TA is within the range of .60 to .70 gpl. For white or country wines, a good TA is within the .70 to .80 range.

To adjust acid, use tartaric acid only. This acid is naturally occurring in grapes. One (1) level teaspoon of tartaric acid will raise 1 gallon of wine by .15gpl.


OK, Now that all of that is said, here is the real kick in the head. For some winemakers, acidity in wine really comes down to taste.. If you do not like acidic wines, and want something softer, you can maintain a higher than normal PH or lower than normal TA, and instead opt for a high level of SO2 (k-meta) to protect your wine. This does require that you know the exact PH of your wine and also requires you to measure the current SO2 levels as well.

For now, as a beginner (I assume), I would simply maintain the proper TA.

Siwash said:

I am gong to be making cab sav and merlot. What yeast should I go with?

I recommend using RC212.

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RevA said:

Do you also plan to age in plastic?
Plastic carboy seems to work well for fermentation too

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I've got a wine & a melomel aging in plastic carbouys now, they've both been there for a little over a year. The wine might be ready to bottle in a few months, the melomel needs another year I think. I've got another 2 wines that'll go into plastic when I rack; they're in glass now.

Switching to plastic was an attempt to reduce weight & eliminate risk of breakage. I've had glass carbouys spontaneously crack & since having spinal surgery it's much more difficult for me to lift full 6 gallon carbouys; a few lbs might not sound like a lot, but it makes a difference.

I've heard that the plastic is slightly permeable to air over the long term, not as much as an oak barrel, but still permeable. I don't know if that's actually true or not, but I suppose it could be.

There are plenty of homebrewers using plastic carbouys with good results, I know beer is in the carbouy for a much shorter time, but I guess I'll find out if plastic works well for wine/melomel.
Regards, GF.

gratus_fermentatio said:

I've got a wine & a melomel aging in plastic carbouys now, they've both been there for a little over a year. The wine might be ready to bottle in a few months, the melomel needs another year I think. I've got another 2 wines that'll go into plastic when I rack; they're in glass now.

Switching to plastic was an attempt to reduce weight & eliminate risk of breakage. I've had glass carbouys spontaneously crack & since having spinal surgery it's much more difficult for me to lift full 6 gallon carbouys; a few lbs might not sound like a lot, but it makes a difference.

I've heard that the plastic is slightly permeable to air over the long term, not as much as an oak barrel, but still permeable. I don't know if that's actually true or not, but I suppose it could be.

There are plenty of homebrewers using plastic carbouys with good results, I know beer is in the carbouy for a much shorter time, but I guess I'll find out if plastic works well for wine/melomel.
Regards, GF.

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If it works for you please post...
Good luck with the process

Floandgary said:

Don't think you'll be getting many thumbs-up on the plastic carboys. If you're planning on aging for a length of time, I'd stick with traditional oak barrel or glass carboy. JMHO

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Volume can make a difference using oak barrels. Science dictates Smaller gives more oak faster, though not dramatically.

StartingLateAt49yo said:

Volume can make a difference using oak barrels. Science dictates Smaller gives more oak faster, though not dramatically.

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The rule of thumb is 1 week per gallon of volume.

JohnT said:

The rule of thumb is 1 week per gallon of volume.

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Thanks JohnT, was wondering about effect size of barrel has but unwilling to go searching...

RevA said:

Thanks JohnT, was wondering about effect size of barrel has but unwilling to go searching...

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No problem.. Just remember that this is a rule of thumb. Plan on tasting your wine as it barrel ages and de-barrel when you are happy with the taste.