Quality vs Cost (grapes vs juice)

I've done a few juice buckets and have been pretty happy. However, I'm interested in starting from grapes. What I'm wondering though is how the quality of wine made from grapes compares to starting with the juice buckets.

A typical juice bucket costs me around $70 through my LHBS. I have read that it takes 2-3 lugs to make 6 gallons, and at around $36 per lug, that could easily cost more than the buckets of juice.

Is it worth it?

Yes, yes it is.

it is like night and day! wine from whole fresh grapes is well worth a try!

Thanks, is it possible to do a small batch without a crusher / wine press?

It absolutely is possible. 100 lbs takes maybe two hours to destemm. Then use a sanitized 4x4 or something like that to crush them. (My wife and I did 300 one year by hand)

I have some muslin bags. Would that work to put the crushed grapes in for fermenting? I could just wring it out then. I've done blueberry wine this way.

I did a hundred pounds once by hand. Once. Never again.

Started at about 3:00PM finished up at 2:00AM! So like 11 hours. And that was with my wife helping me!

cmason1957 said:

It absolutely is possible. 100 lbs takes maybe two hours to destemm. Then use a sanitized 4x4 or something like that to crush them. (My wife and I did 300 one year by hand)

Click to expand...

Timely post.
The muscadines are now in at the farmers market.
May have to switch over from fruit wines.
Cheers!

When I started this hobby following a Portuguese friend, I used merely juice buckets the first 3 years. Most Portuguese don't use sulfite, MLB and not even yeast...they trust the wild yeast...my wine was close to "OK", to say it the best way..

Then I decided to try a "small" 6 gal batch with grapes sold by M&M to a local "Big Y" supermarket.
The supermarket was returning some cases since they were not getting sold and started to grow mold on some.

So, I went to the big freezer area with an employee, scavenged like 7 lugs (don't remember) of Merlot and Cab Sav that were in really good shape, no mold at all...he actually helped picked out the best ones and gave me a substantial discount on them. From like almost $40 to like half the price....scored...!!!

That Merlot/Cab Sab blend was my very first wine from fresh grapes and the best one I've ever made at that point in over 3 years..!!

I NEVER looked back and wine from fresh grapes would be the BEST wine you will ever make. You can make good wine from buckets by adding some fresh crushed grapes to improve the tannins but to me fresh grapes makes the best wine, period.
Costs more? yes
More work? yes
Better wine? Big YES.

Start small, you don't really need to buy equipment, have your LHBS do the crushing for a fee, and when is time to press just use a couple nylon bags and do it by hand to squeeze as much as you can, after racking then do MLF.

That is my story and I'm sticking to it...

Thank you geek! That was exactly the kind of response I was hoping for in this thread. I'm okay with things being more expensive if the quality goes way up. I'll probably still do several buckets this year but maybe try a single 6 gallon batch from grapes.

When I hear your guys stories, I am thankful for where I live and trying to figure out how I could help. Typical price for harvested grapes in my container is $.70/pound. From the time they are picked to when they are destemmed is an hour or two. Would it be possible to put crushed SO2 grapes, in a sealed bag, freeze for 48 hours, ship priority mail 2-3 day and get good, usable must to you?

Update - did some checking 3.4 gallons could be shipped for $16...or 7X more than the cost of the grapes. Yikes.

For the upcoming buckets, also buy 1 lug of grapes and divide it up in like around 9lbs, so you add about 9lbs of crushed grapes to 1 bucket and the lug will be good for 4 buckets. Or even better add 12lbs for each of 3 buckets, for red wine.
This would result in better wine than simply using a juice bucket.

Varis -
Yes that is a very good affordable procedure to do. I will save my skins from the fall that I did not fully pressed out everything and add them to the juice buckets in the spring.

But I will admit that fresh grapes are the way to go if you have the time -
From straight grapes I can make Port - 1st run - and then a 2nd run
biggest bang for the buck

Dang it. After three years, I graduated to fresh juice. It may take awhile for me to go fresh grapes.

Can anyone try to quantify how a merlot made from Lodi grapes (I can get them at a local winery) would compare to an Eclipse Stag Leap Merlot kit?

Just about any fresh grape that is picked at a decent brix and acid level will produce a 10X better wine than ANY kit.

I'd tend to agree with ibglowin. I have three barrels with different wines aging in them. One is a old vine Zin port from frozen must. Full mouthfeel. Very sweet. Legs like a Brazilian supermodel. Next is a Cab/Merlot from frozen must. Very fruit forward still at nearly a year. Full mouth feel and great nose. Next is a petite Verdot with the pressed grape skins of the merlot. Thin. No nose and less than exciting. Before I thought it was amazing, until I made frozen grape wine. Now it falls flat.

"Just about any fresh grape that is picked at a decent brix and acid level will produce a 10X better wine than ANY kit."


I hope that Mike does not mean this literally. This statement cannot reasonably be termed simply "hyperbole." It brings hyperbole to an heretofore unattained level. The most I am willing to concede on this point is the following: Given that one begins with good grapes, i.e. proper brix and acid, no mold, no debris, etc., and makes wine adhering to all reasonable winemaking and sanitary procedures in a proper environment, then wine made from fresh grapes will generally, but not always, be superior to wine from a high quality kit made under the same conditions. Additionally, in comparing fresh grapes to high quality kits, I would list the following caveats:

Just how "superior" one wine is over another is subject to debate (but probably is not 10x)
Making wine from grapes involves more work, expense and equipment.
Making wine from grapes creates a greater mess.
Making wine from grapes generally limits one to grapes grown in quantity and locally.
The farther one is from the source of the grapes, the less the quality of the grapes, i.e. grapes do not benefit from train, truck or boat rides.
Making wine from grapes involves greater risk.

I like wine, make a lot of it for my family and friends and drink a lot of it too. I consider my wine to be good for one reason: the people that drink it, including myself, like it. It may be blasphemous but I am not searching the world for the best bottle of wine extant. After all, it is only a bottle of wine which we enjoy today (and tomorrow it is "buried at sea").

LOL Rocky, just like the BOLD print in my sig, It's just my opinion and (perhaps) a few others as well. That and $3 gets you a small cup of Joe at Starbucks. I still make White wine from kits. Still tweak those and overall happy with the tradeoff and feel there is not much difference between a white wine made from a kit and a white wine made from fresh grapes.

On the other hand I always felt there was a huge difference in taste between a red wine made from a kit and a red wine made from fresh grapes. Something about the 100lbs of skins they are fermented on I guess.

For me Kits were always just OK, some of our friends just loved, loved loved them. I could always taste some amount of Kit Taste even after 2 years bottle age and 3 months in a barrel.

If you like the product and are satisfied with the outcome there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

Your Milage May Vary as they say.

Great, Mike! I understand your view and agree with it up to a point.

Fortunately, I am blessed with extremely mediocre taste buds and I am very easy to please. I sometimes I suspect that my taste buds were burned out with all the capsaicin I have ingested over my many years. When we were in Italy, we went to an Olive Oil tasting and I picked the "worst" olive oil for about 7 samples. To me, it was good and the one I picked was about $20 per gallon. The "best" (according to the experts) cost about $85 per gallon. In every challenge, there is a gift.

As I compose this, I am drinking a Kenridge Showcase Sangiovese/Cabernet Sauvignon that is a little over two years old (pre-historic in my cellar) and it tastes great. I am not sure what "kit taste" is but if this wine has it, I like it. Maybe it is the "winery taste" that I dislike!