Primary to Secondary - When???

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

Hi again - Posting in beginners because I just went to bucket/carboy wine making. I was using different equipment before.
I want to follow directions on my Winexpert kit pretty much until day 14, and at that time I will bulk age. However, I have a question. It says to wait 5-7 days and check SG. If it is at 1010, you MUST rack to secondary. OK - What if the airlock is still very active on day 7? Do I still disturb the wine and rack it, or wait till there is no airlock activity? I mean, is there such a thing of over-fermenting in the primary?
Thank you!

vacuumpumpman · Aug 1, 2015

Yes go ahead and rack it - go according to your hydrometer reading rather than days that are recommended

Here is a thread I started on making a kit all with detailed information -

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50428

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

vacuumpumpman said:
Yes go ahead and rack it - go according to your hydrometer reading rather than days that are recommended

Here is a thread I started on making a kit all with detailed information -

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50428

Thanks Steve!!!!

Kraffty · Aug 1, 2015

Nothing bad will happen if you stretch out any of the steps. If you hit 1.000 on Thursday but need to wait till Saturday to rack just seal the bucket for the extra time.

Rocky · Aug 1, 2015

JoeCal1952, I always trust my hydrometer and not my calendar. The instructions that you get in a kit show general times for various operations. The rate of fermentation can be affected by many variables. I like to rack to the secondary container when the SG goes below 1.020. You will find others that use 1.030 and 1.010. All will work.

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

vacuumpumpman said:
Yes go ahead and rack it - go according to your hydrometer reading rather than days that are recommended

Here is a thread I started on making a kit all with detailed information -

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50428

Steve! Here are my findings. I started at 1.090, and now, after 5 days, the SG was already BELOW 0.990...I decided to rack it into the secondary.

Now, my next issue is degassing. They say after 10 days degas and make sure to bring up sediment for proper clearing. My problem is that I use a mixing wand that hooks up to an electric drill, and that doesn't fit into the carboy. I guess I am going to have to go back to the bucket to degas, then back to the carboy to age? Won't I lose much of the needed sediment going to the bucket to degas??? I don't think this was covered in the illustration sent to me. I never heard of checking SG after 2 1/2 days as the article stated...Have I ruined this wine?

sour_grapes · Aug 1, 2015

JoeCal1952 said:
Steve! Here are my findings. I started at 1.090, and now, after 5 days, the SG was already BELOW 0.990...I decided to rack it into the secondary.

Really? Below 0.990 in 5 days? I find that a bit hard to fathom. Are you sure it wasn't just below 1.000?

Now, my next issue is degassing. They say after 10 days degas and make sure to bring up sediment for proper clearing. My problem is that I use a mixing wand that hooks up to an electric drill, and that doesn't fit into the carboy. I guess I am going to have to go back to the bucket to degas, then back to the carboy to age? Won't I lose much of the needed sediment going to the bucket to degas???

Well, you could transfer to the bucket (leaving the sediment in the carboy), then degas, then transfer back to the carboy full of sediment.
Alternately, you could use a standard long spoon like the one shown below to stir up the sediment just before racking to the bucket.
Personally, I ignore their instructions about stirring the sediment up. Seems to clear just fine!

Have I ruined this wine?

No. No you have not!

450x450x7329.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hTuBCYtHhx.jpg

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

sour_grapes said:
Really? Below 0.990 in 5 days? I find that a bit hard to fathom. Are you sure it wasn't just below 1.000?

Well, you could transfer to the bucket (leaving the sediment in the carboty), then degas, then transfer back to the carboy full of sediment.
Alternately, you could use a standard long spoon like the one shown below to stir up the sediment just before racking to the bucket.
Personally, I ignore their instructions about stirring the sediment up. Seems to clear just fine!

No. No you have not!

I checked it, and re-checked because I didn't believe it myself. The hydrometer sunk into the wine thief all the way down. If the increments are in 2, then this was two lines PAST 0.990!

I have that exact "spoon" - I was just worried that any further fermentation would make this wine really too strong...I guess that isn't such a bad thing anyway. And if I decide not to rack to the bucket first, I would use the back end of that spoon which would then fit into the carboy. The problem with the electric drill & wand I use is that it does fit into the carboy, but then you can't get it out. Those small "paddles" only flap one way. I like the drill method because you really get a good degassing...we'll see! It seems after reading so much most folks ignore instructions. LOL

cintipam · Aug 1, 2015

Hi Joe

Maybe I am reading your sentence the wrong way, but you say the hydrometer was 2 full lines below the .990. On my hydrometer that actually means a reading of .994, which is a more common end reading of lots of wines. Look at your hydrometer and look at the next big number below the .990. If it is 1.00 then you reading is actually .994. If you meant that the .990 number was not visible because it was below the level of the wine by 2 little lines, then indeed the wine would be .986, but I've never heard of any wine going that low.

And if you think that is confusing, wait till you start trying to talk about PH!

Pam in cinti

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

cintipam said:
Hi Joe

Maybe I am reading your sentence the wrong way, but you say the hydrometer was 2 full lines below the .990. On my hydrometer that actually means a reading of .994, which is a more common end reading of lots of wines. Look at your hydrometer and look at the next big number below the .990. If it is 1.00 then you reading is actually .994. If you meant that the .990 number was not visible because it was below the level of the wine by 2 little lines, then indeed the wine would be .986, but I've never heard of any wine going that low.

And if you think that is confusing, wait till you start trying to talk about PH!

Pam in cinti

Hi Pam - I did mean 0.986 - The hydrometer nearly bottomed out in the wine thief. And now, the airlock is still bubbling in the secondary. Not unless there is something wrong with the hydrometer, but it is fairly new and was accurate in the past. I have never seen this in all the years making wine...PH? I am not going to even think about PH LOL!!! Wondering if I can open the secondary up and test again? Maybe there wasn't enough wine in the thief because it is a shallow bucket? I don't know if that matters, but there was plenty to allow the hydrometer to float?

cintipam · Aug 1, 2015

Joe, my fingers did a reversal. I meant if not .994 then the reading would be .896. That .896 is so low I'm not sure it's possible. You might want to try again. If the wine level is somewhere between the .990 and 1.00, then the reading is probably accurate.

There are a lot of good how to read hydrometer vids out there. The first I found is this one.

http://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/guides/wine-making/how-to-use-a-hydrometer/#.Vbz_ffNVhBc

Again, somewhere on WMT is an excellent how to read hydrometer but every time I look for it I just can't find it. Maybe someone else will direct you to it.

In the meantime .994-.996 is a very fine number for wine end of active fermentation. Any airlock activity you see now will be a combo of the wine slowly releasing the co2 caused by fermentation and possible weather pressure changes that can cause large wine carboys to expand or contract a bit. No worries, no need to open up and do it again, tho if you want to and keep sterile it won't hurt anything. As long as the hydrometer was not actually sitting on the bottom or clinging to the side your reading is probably accurate.

Pam in cinti

JoeCal1952 · Aug 1, 2015

cintipam said:
Joe, my fingers did a reversal. I meant if not .994 then the reading would be .896. That .896 is so low I'm not sure it's possible. You might want to try again. If the wine level is somewhere between the .990 and 1.00, then the reading is probably accurate.

There are a lot of good how to read hydrometer vids out there. The first I found is this one.

http://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/guides/wine-making/how-to-use-a-hydrometer/#.Vbz_ffNVhBc

Again, somewhere on WMT is an excellent how to read hydrometer but every time I look for it I just can't find it. Maybe someone else will direct you to it.

In the meantime .994-.996 is a very fine number for wine end of active fermentation. Any airlock activity you see now will be a combo of the wine slowly releasing the co2 caused by fermentation and possible weather pressure changes that can cause large wine carboys to expand or contract a bit. No worries, no need to open up and do it again, tho if you want to and keep sterile it won't hurt anything. As long as the hydrometer was not actually sitting on the bottom or clinging to the side your reading is probably accurate.

Pam in cinti

Thanks Pam....It wasn't sitting on the bottom. I know that for sure, and I do know how to read these things. All I can think of is maybe the amount of wine in the wine thief just didn't have enough volume to give an accurate reading. I will, however, read the things you sent me. When I looked at the hydrometer, all I could really see was the very tip of it... That cannot be a true reading. Now that it is in a carboy, the wine thief can be filled up more and maybe it will be different. I am going to let it sit for the 10 days and re-check - I am sure this will be fine. Thanks for the response!

richmke · Aug 2, 2015

How about posting a pic of the floating hydrometer? It would be one for the record book.

Floandgary · Aug 2, 2015

Joe Cal,,,, do not be afraid to experiment. Even with minimal winemaking experience (and I do believe you are well past that) it is hard to ruin a batch. As has been written here many times before, there are many of us who simply ferment in the bucket (with nothing more than a loose lid to keep bugs, dust, etc. out) till completely dry. Anywhere from .990-.992 usually. No changes in 3 days, then rack to carboy under airlock. Commence treatments--- oaking, backsweetening (stabilize first), flavoring, or whatever for a month. Rack-over and K-meta every couple of months thereafter. This will accommodate clearing and degassing. Before you know it you'll be wondering where you got this wine. :db

JoeCal1952 · Aug 2, 2015

richmke said:
How about posting a pic of the floating hydrometer? It would be one for the record book.

I will certainly do that when I re-check the SG in a few days. I don't know if maybe there just wasn't enough juice in the wine thief as I previously stated, or what the heck was going on, but now that it is in the carboy, I can fill the wine thief as high as I want. Again, I don't know if that makes a difference, but I know the hydrometer wasn't hitting bottom. Very strange to me!

JoeCal1952 · Aug 2, 2015

Floandgary said:
Joe Cal,,,, do not be afraid to experiment. Even with minimal winemaking experience (and I do believe you are well past that) it is hard to ruin a batch. As has been written here many times before, there are many of us who simply ferment in the bucket (with nothing more than a loose lid to keep bugs, dust, etc. out) till completely dry. Anywhere from .990-.992 usually. No changes in 3 days, then rack to carboy under airlock. Commence treatments--- oaking, backsweetening (stabilize first), flavoring, or whatever for a month. Rack-over and K-meta every couple of months thereafter. This will accommodate clearing and degassing. Before you know it you'll be wondering where you got this wine.

Well - I do have minimal wine making experience when it comes to the bucket/carboy. I go back a long time making wine with my family with 90 pounds of Zinfandel grapes and oak barrels. Never owned a Hydrometer or worried about sanitizing, and our wines were awesome. So - having said that, bucket/carboy is a different ball game...The juice is now under airlock in the carboy and I am intending to add my oak and maybe some peppercorns and coffee beans, but not to much pepper and coffee. Now, about the K-Meta, this is something I have never used. I usually add a touch more of Potassium metabisulphite and just let it age after a real hardy degassing...I will read up on the K-Meta. I have time before I get to that point. I appreciate everyone's input, and never realized how much time this needs to age before bottling...Have a great night - stay tuned for more :se

richmke · Aug 3, 2015

JoeCal1952 said:
I don't know if that makes a difference, but I know the hydrometer wasn't hitting bottom.

As long as it is not hitting bottom, the height doesn't matter. If it is hitting bottom, the SG would read too high, not too low.

JoeCal1952 · Aug 3, 2015

richmke said:
As long as it is not hitting bottom, the height doesn't matter. If it is hitting bottom, the SG would read too high, not too low.

Well Richmke - unless my eyes played tricks on me twice, that reading was 2 lines "deeper" than 0.990 making it 0.886 - I just checked a Cabernet I have going in another fermenter and that reads 0.990 after 11 days, so I think the Hydrometer is fine...It could be human error...Or else this wine is going to be stronger than I would like a Pinot Noir..Well see down the road after I degas this and start to age it....
Thanks as always for a Quick response

richmke · Aug 3, 2015

JoeCal1952 said:
reading was 2 lines "deeper" than 0.990 making it 0.886

Can you see the 0.990 line? When you say "deeper", do you mean the liquid level is 2 lines below the 0.990 line? If so, then your reading is 0.994.

JoeCal1952 · Aug 4, 2015

richmke said:
Can you see the 0.990 line? When you say "deeper", do you mean the liquid level is 2 lines below the 0.990 line? If so, then your reading is 0.994.

No I cannot see the 0.990. - it is beneath the wine - which makes it 0.986 and that is crazy, right?

Primary to Secondary - When???

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