Yet Another Yeast Question

I am currently using Lalvin EC-1118. My last yeast purchase was Red Star Cuvee. The Red Star seems to be a lot more vigorous than the Lalvin, just the nature of the yeast I suppose. I also have some Red Star Platinum baking yeast, which I use for small experimental batches that I just wish to get an idea of what it will taste like. That yeast is also very vigorous.

My last batch was with Lalvin and it didn't seem to be making much of a protective cap on the bucket so I added another packet and ended up moving it into a carboy earlier than I wanted to. It ended up fine in the long run, it just made me nervous.

I plan on starting another batch soon and I was thinking of adding both the Lalvin and the Red Star. My thinking is that the vigorous Red Star will help form a protective cap on the bucket but start dying out as the ABV level increases, then the Lalvin will take over and finish the job. Does that sound like a good idea?

I think you are making a mistake by interpreting visual "activity" of the yeast to be indicative of its vigor. Yeast function on a microscopic level - what effects of that activity that we can readily see is not definitive of the microscopic activity, it's only a by-product. I'm not sure what you mean by Lalvin yeast (compared to Red Star) not "making much of a protective cap on the bucket" - generally, that's not a good thing. With fresh grapes we have to regularly break up or "punch down" the cap of grape skins to ensure everything is mixing the way it needs to. I don't remember kits or juice forming a cap, other than some bubbles, which I stir up as soon as I notice it anyway.

Bottom line - both of those yeasts will ferment a rusty nail or wet cement, as it has been joked before. Lalvin's has a little high alcohol tolerance - up to 18%, while Red Star Cuvee will go 14-16% - both of those should be plenty high for all but the most alcoholic of wines. You can do both yeast if you want to, I don't think it would hurt anything, but I think you are wasting your time; one way it could hurt - yeast require oxygen to get started, so if you are exposing the wine to more oxygen after it is already fully fermented, that could lead (albeit to a small degree) to some oxidation which is not good.

Different yeasts are designed to impart on and highlight different flavors from the fruits and sugars being fermented. You may want to experiment with different varieties that are less aggressive and are more nuanced... EC -1118 is a pile driver. You may want a yeast that acts more like a scalpel...

Bartman said:

I think you are making a mistake by interpreting visual "activity" of the yeast to be indicative of its vigor. Yeast function on a microscopic level - what effects of that activity that we can readily see is not definitive of the microscopic activity, it's only a by-product. I'm not sure what you mean by Lalvin yeast (compared to Red Star) not "making much of a protective cap on the bucket" - generally, that's not a good thing. With fresh grapes we have to regularly break up or "punch down" the cap of grape skins to ensure everything is mixing the way it needs to. I don't remember kits or juice forming a cap, other than some bubbles, which I stir up as soon as I notice it anyway.

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I thought the bubbles were carbon dioxide, which protected the wine from the outside air and the amount of activity was why you did your primary fermentation in a bucket then moved it to a carboy, in order to expose as little of the surface to air, as fermentation slowed down. Am I missing something?

Bottom line - both of those yeasts will ferment a rusty nail or wet cement, as it has been joked before. Lalvin's has a little high alcohol tolerance - up to 18%, while Red Star Cuvee will go 14-16% - both of those should be plenty high for all but the most alcoholic of wines.

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Strong is what I go for every time. I add enough sugar to make it ~14% but if it goes higher nobody will complain

There may be confusion here over the word "cap." What exactly do you mean by that term? In common winemaking parlance, a cap is a raft of skins and other solids that floats on the surface of fermenting must. (It sounds like you may be using it to describe CO2 evolving from the wine.)

Kpassa said:

Strong is what I go for every time. I add enough sugar to make it ~14% but if it goes higher nobody will complain

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If you or your friends are simply looking for an alcoholic buzz that is one thing but wine really needs to be balanced so the amount of alcohol, it's sweetness, the strength of the flavor and kick from the level of acidity all need to be in balance. If no one complains if the wine has an excess of alcohol that is their business but it may be that their expectations are less than they might be.

Kpassa said:

I thought the bubbles were carbon dioxide, which protected the wine from the outside air and the amount of activity was why you did your primary fermentation in a bucket then moved it to a carboy, in order to expose as little of the surface to air, as fermentation slowed down. Am I missing something?

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Those statements are correct, but my point is you can't simply look at the surface of the fermenting juice and determine that the ferment is going well or not. Yes, an obviously vigorous bubbling/foaming fermentation is going well, but that may only last a day or so and then it may quit altogether if, for example, the must needs some yeast nutrient, leaving an incomplete fermentation. Or - as is usually the case for me - the fermentation is far more subtle, not much bubbling/foaming, just some fizzing and motion or "currents" at the surface (those are kind of freaky). I used to be conerned when the fermentation was not "active" as you describe, but realized that is simply how it goes sometimes.

So, visual cues can be helpful, but that won't tell the whole story. Use a hydrometer to determine the initial specific gravity and then you can keep track of the fermenting progress as the specific gravity drops as the sugar is converted to alcohol. I just leave the hydrometer in the must/juice as it is fermenting for ease of checking and not having to clean it and store it between checks.