WineXpert Carboy vs bottle aging

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btmcdavid

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This was a quote taken from another contributor that summarized thread after thread I have read:

"Based on multiple recommendations from this website I traditionally rack my aging Reds every 3 months and add up to a quarter teaspoon of KMeta at each racking. After 1 year of bulk aging in the car boy I will bottle and let age anywhere from 3 months to 1 more year. so far this has worked for me"

This advise makes no sense to me. Why in a large bottle (carboy) do you rack over and over exposing to oxygen adding Kmeta over and over to try to mitigate the Oxidation vs just bottling it immediately and calling it good?

If it was an oak barrel and micro oxygenation was part of the conversation I could see the argument but I'm lost with the carboys...
 
This was a quote taken from another contributor that summarized thread after thread I have read:

"Based on multiple recommendations from this website I traditionally rack my aging Reds every 3 months and add up to a quarter teaspoon of KMeta at each racking. After 1 year of bulk aging in the car boy I will bottle and let age anywhere from 3 months to 1 more year. so far this has worked for me"

This advise makes no sense to me. Why in a large bottle (carboy) do you rack over and over exposing to oxygen adding Kmeta over and over to try to mitigate the Oxidation vs just bottling it immediately and calling it good?

If it was an oak barrel and micro oxygenation was part of the conversation I could see the argument but I'm lost with the carboys...

I am assuming that they are transferring between carboys in order to clarify - drop out any excessive tartaric acid (and or any other acid ), prior to filtering (if so desired ) and bottle to age

I transfer under vacuum as there is minimal exposure to oxygen but at the same time you are removing CO2
 
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The way I see it is that some people who bulk age in a carboy like to get rid of the sediment as wine ages so they end up with a clear wine in the end that will drop less sediment when stored in bottles over long periods of time. Secondly, the exposure to oxygen during racking is insignificant (that is, if you don't splash it too much on purpose) and, in fact, helps the wine to develop flavor. Finally, as you rack, you gradually get rid of much of the carbon dioxide that is dissolved in wine following the fermentation. Not everybody would agree, I should imagine, but that's how I see it, based on what I heard and read.
 
From racking the wine your leaving the sediment behind and racking from carboy to carboy there is almost no oxygen being introduced. I lay a towel over each of the 2 carboys to minimize this even further. This also gives an opportunity to test the wine if any additions are needed. And this also aids in degassing fi no bottle explosions
 
Not that early bottling can't be or hasn't been done, but bulk aging has the advantage of accessibility should anything go awry with the batch or should you want to experiment with blending, flavoring, backsweetening, etc.. I would submit that any oxygenation in a carboy racking process would be micro at best (worst) while maintaining the advantages of degassing/clarification.
 
Once my wine is done (fermentation, degassed, cleared) and I have done my Quality Assurance :dg I do not see any reason not to bottle.
 
CO2 and sediment. Wine changes a lot that first year and new connections are made and solids fall out. I'd rather not have that in the bottom of the bottle.
 
This was a quote taken from another contributor that summarized thread after thread I have read:

"Based on multiple recommendations from this website I traditionally rack my aging Reds every 3 months and add up to a quarter teaspoon of KMeta at each racking. After 1 year of bulk aging in the car boy I will bottle and let age anywhere from 3 months to 1 more year. so far this has worked for me"

This advise makes no sense to me. Why in a large bottle (carboy) do you rack over and over exposing to oxygen adding Kmeta over and over to try to mitigate the Oxidation vs just bottling it immediately and calling it good?

If it was an oak barrel and micro oxygenation was part of the conversation I could see the argument but I'm lost with the carboys...
I agree with you, sort of. Some of the arguments made about getting rid of CO2, or sediment are often made by grape winemakers who prefer to clarify their wines that way (time is magic) instead of adding supplied clarifying agents, and manually degassing (with a spoon, drill mounted device or vacuum). I simply can't wait that long, as I don't have enough space or carboys to accommodate that method.
I mostly follow the instructions for stabilization and clarification. In addition, I rack the wine on "bottling day" from the instructions and leave another 4 weeks (ish) and rack to a pail on bottling day. I find that the extra rackings allow me to forgo filtering, and the extra time takes away the "young" smell I am familiar with on "bottling day"
As for exposure to oxygen during racking, you are absolutely right; the carboy you are racking to is full of air, that you are displacing with wine. Additionally, air is being added to the carboy you are racking from. Even using vacuum racking does not completely prevent this from happening, as it is not "absolute vacuum" (both carboys would need a bladder). The duration of exposure is likely important, and that is not very long, and the addition of some more SO2 provides the additional security that it won't oxidize.
Clear as mud, isn't it?
 
I believe that you have taken the oxygen during racking to a new height.

If you really want to go this route - this is how I would approach the situation -

fill the receiving carboy with argon gas to remove all air content by flooding it with argon and then use a vacuum to start transferring - then switch the argon over to the full carboy and slowly keep filling the carboy as the liquid is being transferred.

I personally think this is over kill myself - but whatever works for you
 
I believe that you have taken the oxygen during racking to a new height.

If you really want to go this route - this is how I would approach the situation -

fill the receiving carboy with argon gas to remove all air content by flooding it with argon and then use a vacuum to start transferring - then switch the argon over to the full carboy and slowly keep filling the carboy as the liquid is being transferred.

I personally think this is over kill myself - but whatever works for you
LOL. You're so right. You can tell I don't do any of this, or I would have led with Argon gas. Only a few of my bottles ever get to 3 years, and I've never had a problem...but he did ask.
 
A lot of homebrewers will purge their kegs with CO2 prior to filling they have it on hand for serving purposes. I've read some people even attempt to acheive something similar during bottling by filling each bottle with a small piece of dry ice.

Would CO2 purging work for wine the way argon would, or is there some interaction/reaction that should be avoided?

Not that I have any interest in doing something like that. I just like exploring the sciency side of things.
 
Would CO2 purging work for wine the way argon would, or is there some interaction/reaction that should be avoided?

Yes, using CO2 to purge/blanket vessels in wine making works as long as the pressure in said vessels is low and/or the temp is high. CO2 solubility in water is a function of both pressure and temp.

I actually purge the head space of my fast ferment conicals with CO2 because of the very large head space. Other folks I know who, like me, both brew beer and make wine, keg their wine and serve it on very low CO2 pressure. They have no problems with carbonating the wine because the warm temperature keeps solubility low.
 
I have a question to pose related to bulk vs. bottle aging with my specific locale / temperatures thrown into the mix. First, some background info:

Live in south Louisiana, it's really hot, have no basement (we call them swimming pools), my home is kept at 76 degrees by A/C May through October. November through March, when it's cool, home temps maintained around 68 degrees.

Don't have a walk in cellar at this time, but do have substantial capacity for storing bottles at 55 degrees in large cabinet type refrigerated cellars.

Do mostly high end kits, big reds (MM and WE), generally following the given process. Degas with drill and brake bleeder. All oaking, tannin, etc. adjustments are made in carboys after the wine has been cleared and subsequently racked. Wines stay in carboys several months during this process with KMS additions as required. Wines are gas free, crystal clear and beautiful at the end of that time frame. Don't filter reds.

So, here's the question. Once finished oaking, tannins, etc. is the wine better off bulk aging in carboys under the temperature conditions and fluctuations given above, or would it be more beneficial to the wine to be bottled and stored at 55 degrees for aging?

Hoping someone has some experiences to share related to this, maybe even some experimental results from the long time wine makers!!
 
I cannot speak from experience, but you might consider Tim Vandergrift's assessment of this question:

Bulk or bottle?
One thing that comes up fairly often is the idea that aging in bulk in the carboy will produce better wine. Well . . . no. Once the wine is completely clear and stable, carboys don’t present an advantage for medium-term storage over bottles. There is no magic chemical process that is aided by storing it in a larger volume. If you think about it, wineries work to get their wines stable and ready, and then as soon as they are, they put them into bottles to finish aging — no ifs or buts, it’s bottles. In fact, the modern concept of aging wine only came about in the 1600’s after the adoption of bottles and corks for wine storage.

However, there are two small things that can be cast as votes in favor of bulk-aging. First, if your aging/cellaring area goes through a lot of temperature swings then the larger bulk of a 6-gallon (23-L) carboy will provide more thermal mass to ride out the temperature shifts, preventing sudden thermal shocks to the wine.

Second, if your wine is resting quietly in a nicely topped-up carboy, there’s no way to sneak a bottle to see if it’s ready. This can be a challenge to wine connoisseurs as well as home winemakers. My friend Chris, an award-winning sommelier actually stores his best bottles at his parent’s house, a three-hour drive from his own. He explains that his strategy is to prevent the sudden “Friday-night-after-dinner-and-a-few-bottles” notion of digging into the cellar to try his treasures. If you have trouble keeping your mitts off wine that might not yet be ready, a carboy can be a powerful tool to prevent “vinfanticide.” If you’ve got the willpower, go ahead and bottle.
 
I cannot speak from experience, but you might consider Tim Vandergrift's assessment of this question:


I've read that article a dozen times. Good ol' Tim Whatshisname. It really comes down to elimination of CO2; weathering changes in temp while aging; and putting a nicer shine on your wine. Unless you're a tweaker, or can't keep you hands off your wine - that's pretty much it.

Or is it??

I don't necessarily agree that commercial wine makers rush their wines to the bottle. In my vast year of experience in this arena (snark), that may be true for the mass marketed daily drinkers. But, it seems the better commercial wines will barrel age for 12 months or more, then bottle age another 12 months before they push it out to market.

My OCD prevents me from bulk aging that long. But, if it's good enough for the Boissetts, a little extra time in the carboy is good enough for me.
 
Sulphate

Sorry , not trying to hijack thread, it just kind of fits here.

I bulk age my reds for at least a year in a carboy. Wine stores are always telling me I should be adding extra sulphate or put more in when I rack. I've never done this. Have not seemed to be a problem (yet)

I'm trying to get away with not adding a bunch of stuff to the batch. Should I be adding the sulphate?
 
OK,, let's see,, why not just ferment and go straight to the bottle??? Then later we can revisit the topic of "there's a lot of crud in my bottles,, what can I do?",, or "my corks keep poppin' out, what can I do?", or "something doesn't smell/taste right,, what can I do?". The Ancients discovered bulk aging and passed their knowledge and practices to us. Try it,,,, you'll like it!:ft:)
 
OK,, let's see,, why not just ferment and go straight to the bottle??? Then later we can revisit the topic of "there's a lot of crud in my bottles,, what can I do?",, or "my corks keep poppin' out, what can I do?", or "something doesn't smell/taste right,, what can I do?". The Ancients discovered bulk aging and passed their knowledge and practices to us. Try it,,,, you'll like it!:ft:)

Couldn't agree more. If you don't have to, why bottle early.

For me, after stable, 6 months in the barrel, remainder of the year in carboy. Bottle at 1 year with 4 splits that i try once a quarter. If all is good, start drinking at 2 yr mark. Only do 2 -3 kits a year, but has never done me wrong.
 

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