dominant yeasts taking over fermentations.

i had never heard of this before today, and hadn't seen anything about it here either so if it's old news to some of you, please forgive.

here is the article link.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B97IgKRpGTrYeUlYUWhDQmc4QXc&usp=sharing

Interesting!

I haven't used either if those strains, but I am familiar with their 'powerhouse' reputation. I suppose Lalvin 1118 and red star Pasteur champagne would be battling for supremecy in my kitchen.

What I question, and I can question from experience, would be that if it were 100% true, wouldn't these 'workhorse' commercial strains also take over beer fermentations? My hubby and I have had active primaries in tandem and he's not had an over-fermented brew. I am aware that most wine yeasts can't convert some stuff in beer, but I'm also aware the Lalvin ec-1118 and/or Pasteur champagne is some pretty aggressive stuff.

So, I know I don't know. Very interesting either way.

jojabri said:

My hubby and I have had active primaries in tandem and he's not had an over-fermented brew.

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Honest question, as I am not a beermaker: what are the signs of "an overfermented brew?"

Hmm, I guess this might be a good excuse to break out the good oll stir plate before I inoculate.

This depends largely on your location. If you live in the middle of vineyard country where domesticated, powerful strains which produce protein-reducing toxins are used (read: 'killer factor"), this can occur. If you were to open a vineyard in the middle of nowhere near the coast of Alaska and grow cold-hearty icewine grapes, you will likely receive a decidedly less domesticated set of yeasts.

One size does not fit all.

sour_grapes said:

Honest question, as I am not a beermaker: what are the signs of "an overfermented brew?"

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Generally speaking the hubby aims for an OG of about 1.050 and it finishes right at 1.010 ideally. In short the yeast stops (becomes inactive) until you add priming sugar to carbonate (if bottle conditioning, YUCK!! I WANT MINE FILTERED!!) at usually right at 1.010ish naturally. I would think over-fermented would be anything past that point.

From what I understand the yeast stops because it can't process maltotriose. Whether or not a hardcore 'workhorse' wine yeast would, I have no idea.

The yeast strain the hubby uses is very fragile. I want to say it's only up to about 8% ABV or so (if I can recall correctly.)

Not sure if that helped your understanding or not... he's the brewer... and we don't cross into each others worlds that much... unless he's trying to use up one of MY glass carboys or MY AIO... LOL!

there are actually a few things that seem a little hard to believe about this concept, which is why i linked the article itself instead of just repeating what i had read.
if i'm interpreting it correctly, what would even be the need to pitch yeast in the first place when some unknown strain is going to bully it's way in and take over anyhow?
also, if true, short of the complex and probably very expensive analysis done in the testing, how do you even know what you have fermented with?

I make both wine and beer.

The main reason beer finishes at higher than dry on the SG scale is that the mash process converts only a certain portion of the starches and sugars found in the malted barley into fermentable sugars. An "over fermented" beer has more to do with the mashing process than the selection of the yeast. For instance, a low temperature during mash will produce more simple sugars and lead to a beer that is drier than intended (thus over fermented).

I would like to say that all commercial Yeasts (including 1118) lack the proper enzymes to degrade these complex sugars.

Another variable is the apparent attenuation of the yeast strain which will play a role into the finishing taste of a beer and will play into the equation.

LeChat said:

I make both wine and beer.

The main reason beer finishes at higher than dry on the SG scale is that the mash process converts only a certain portion of the starches and sugars found in the malted barley into fermentable sugars. An "over fermented" beer has more to do with the mashing process than the selection of the yeast. For instance, a low temperature during mash will produce more simple sugars and lead to a beer that is drier than intended (thus over fermented).

I would like to say that all commercial Yeasts (including 1118) lack the proper enzymes to degrade these complex sugars.

Another variable is the apparent attenuation of the yeast strain which will play a role into the finishing taste of a beer and will play into the equation.

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Unless... You play with brett....

seth8530 said:

Unless... You play with brett....

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Manure goes into my garden.... not into my beer.

Ahh, but what about in your mead?

Well, maybe I should start making some mead then!

Is manure mead your favourite?

Steve, thanks for the article. I have said right along always start with a good yeast starter properly prepared and with goferm. I have never put meta in any batch whether it be fruit or grape to kill off other yeast. I inoculate immediately with a ood yeast starter unless if I need to wait a day for the juice to warm up a bit.

LeChat said:

Well, maybe I should start making some mead then!

Is manure mead your favourite?

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Well, it is using buckwheat honey.... But, that being said if done the right way some of the funky musky taste from brett can fit in quite well in beer and maybe mead ( one way to find out).

Runningwolf said:

Steve, thanks for the article. I have said right along always start with a good yeast starter properly prepared and with goferm. I have never put meta in any batch whether it be fruit or grape to kill off other yeast. I inoculate immediately with a ood yeast starter unless if I need to wait a day for the juice to warm up a bit.

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Yep, I guess one thing to make sure of is that your starter equipment is also not infected with dominant yet unwanted yeast too.. But what can you do right? If you say do one thing you can think of 5 more things you could be doing.

Seth. it's a never ending cycle. We all know all equipment should be sanitized before using it. I will not ever say this is the only way to do something. With that said, If I pressed fruit and didn't plan on fermenting for a day or two to let the sediment fall and rack before fermentation, then yes I would be adding meta with the enzyme. For juice pails, I just add the yeast starter.

wyntheef said:

if i'm interpreting it correctly, what would even be the need to pitch yeast in the first place when some unknown strain is going to bully it's way in and take over anyhow?

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I suppose the response to this depends on whether you are making wine from grapes, juice, or kits. My answer is in the context of my being a kit user.

For one thing, your basement is not the same environment as the commercial vineyard/wineries where the study took place. You don't have years of accumulated yeast that find their way into the must.

Second, the yeast we pitch typically ARE one of the dominant strains. The article mostly talks about the folly of expecting a wild yeast to carry out the fermentation. It did not say much about starting with one commercial yeast, and ending with another. In fact, the subtitle of the article was: The yeast strain you think is fermenting your wine probably isn't doing the job -- unless it is a dominant commercial strain (emphasis added).