Lots of MLF questions....

So this is my first time with wine from grapes as well as MLF. Monday I crushed 180 pounds of Malbec Grapes, pitched a yeast starter (2 packages of Red Star Pasteur Red yeast). No sulfite was added because I didn't want to prevent the MLF, so I'm not sure if it the wild or inoculated yeast that has taken over. Here are the juice's stats:

pH: 3.33
SG: 1.100
Ta: .06%

I plan on pressing the grapes this weekend to transferring to the carboy to let it finish it's ferment. This should give me about ten gallons of wine when all is said and done, so I plan on doing 5 gallons with MLF, 5 gallons without. (I'd like to see what the difference is in taste, etc.) I have the MLF culture as well as the Chromatography test kit. So here are my questions.

1) It seems like from what I've read, you want to inoculate with the MLF culture during fermentation. So I plan on doing that this weekend to one of the carboys. What do you all do? Does that sound about right?

2) How long does MLF typically take? When should I start testing if it is complete or not?

3)How long after MLF is finished should I rack? Should I rack right away or should I just rack as I normally would while clearing?

4) How long after MLF should I add the sulfite? (I'm guessing pretty soon after).

Since I'm probably not going to backsweeten the wine, I'm going to let it de-gas and clear naturally, so I'm not planning on adding sorbate or fining agents, just some sulfite to preserve. I'm going to oak it and age it for a minimum of a year, maybe 18 months (depending on what the taste tests reveal). So I'm guessing I should probably just wait until all is said and done to add the oak, I'll wait until all fermentation, etc. is completed to add the oak cubes. Any input will be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

P.S.
5) I think I know the answer to this one, but I'm going to ask anyways: Do I need to leave head space in the carboy for MLF? It doesn't really foam too much, does it? It doesn't need oxygen, right?

SarahRides said:

I plan on pressing the grapes this weekend to transferring to the carboy to let it finish it's ferment. This should give me about ten gallons of wine when all is said and done, so I plan on doing 5 gallons with MLF, 5 gallons without. (I'd like to see what the difference is in taste, etc.) I have the MLF culture as well as the Chromatography test kit. So here are my questions.

1) It seems like from what I've read, you want to inoculate with the MLF culture during fermentation. So I plan on doing that this weekend to one of the carboys. What do you all do? Does that sound about right?

2) How long does MLF typically take? When should I start testing if it is complete or not?

3)How long after MLF is finished should I rack? Should I rack right away or should I just rack as I normally would while clearing?

4) How long after MLF should I add the sulfite? (I'm guessing pretty soon after).

Since I'm probably not going to backsweeten the wine, I'm going to let it de-gas and clear naturally, so I'm not planning on adding sorbate or fining agents, just some sulfite to preserve. I'm going to oak it and age it for a minimum of a year, maybe 18 months (depending on what the taste tests reveal). So I'm guessing I should probably just wait until all is said and done to add the oak, I'll wait until all fermentation, etc. is completed to add the oak cubes. Any input will be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

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Sarah I Am also currently doing an mlf. I waited until the wine was below 5 brix before adding the mlf culture. I also added super ferment at the same time. If you add super ferment you'll need head space for sure for several days. If not, I would top off after stirring in the culture. I would say you can expect 1-3 months for the entire process. I will start testing after two months. I'll be happy to walk you through the chromatography, it's easy.

When it is finished, rack off your lees and sulphite asap.

Thanks Dan! I don't have any super ferment, my LHBS don't carry it (I've checked before). Is yeast nutrient an acceptable substitute? Will it make a big difference if I don't add it? I might leave some head space anyways since it will still be fermenting, I'm not too worried about oxidation this early.

I would wait press grapes at 1.000 or less.Wait 24 to 48 hrs rack off gross lees.Add your ml culture and nutrient.Keep warm around 70 or a bit above.Test in a month and keep testing until mlf is complete.Rack and add your s02.

SarahRides said:

So this is my first time with wine from grapes as well as MLF. Monday I crushed 180 pounds of Malbec Grapes, pitched a yeast starter (2 packages of Red Star Pasteur Red yeast). No sulfite was added because I didn't want to prevent the MLF, so I'm not sure if it the wild or inoculated yeast that has taken over. Here are the juice's stats:

pH: 3.33
SG: 1.100
Ta: .06%

I plan on pressing the grapes this weekend to transferring to the carboy to let it finish it's ferment. This should give me about ten gallons of wine when all is said and done, so I plan on doing 5 gallons with MLF, 5 gallons without. (I'd like to see what the difference is in taste, etc.) I have the MLF culture as well as the Chromatography test kit. So here are my questions.

1) It seems like from what I've read, you want to inoculate with the MLF culture during fermentation. So I plan on doing that this weekend to one of the carboys. What do you all do? Does that sound about right?

2) How long does MLF typically take? When should I start testing if it is complete or not?

3)How long after MLF is finished should I rack? Should I rack right away or should I just rack as I normally would while clearing?

4) How long after MLF should I add the sulfite? (I'm guessing pretty soon after).

Since I'm probably not going to backsweeten the wine, I'm going to let it de-gas and clear naturally, so I'm not planning on adding sorbate or fining agents, just some sulfite to preserve. I'm going to oak it and age it for a minimum of a year, maybe 18 months (depending on what the taste tests reveal). So I'm guessing I should probably just wait until all is said and done to add the oak, I'll wait until all fermentation, etc. is completed to add the oak cubes. Any input will be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

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Hi Sarah,

The initial dose of sulfites doesn't have any harmful affect on MLF, if it is not over done. It is there to discourage the native yeast from starting the fermentation. Typically, the native yeast will loose out to the cultured yeast, anyway. No harm done, if you didn't do that initial dose as long as you are not letting the must soak for very long before you pitch the yeast. Some SO2 will be provided by fermentation, itself.

1) You can add the MLF bacteria during yeast fermentation if you want. Lots of people do it this way, so there will be plenty of nutrients available for the bacteria. The sooner you add the bacteria, the sooner they will finish, of course.

2) The time an MLF can take is pretty variable. I left my last batch in MLF for 6 weeks, but that is very long. Longer is not better, since the wine has little or no free SO2 during this time.

3,4) Rack as soon as MLF is done and immediately add the Kmeta after racking.

Make sure your alcohol level is not above what your specific MLF bacteria can tolerate (see the spec sheet for the bacteria). You should be able to guesstimate this right after your initial SG reading. Assume the wine will finish at .997. ABV = (start SG minus ending SG) times 131.

Understand that because of the absence of adequate free SO2, the wine is not protected during MLF. (Don't loose sleep over it, just be mindful. Wine is more forgiving than we give it credit.) During MLF, don't open the carboy any more than necessary other than to check for MLF progress or if you have to stir the wine on a few ocassions. You can add oak during yeast fermentation, during MLF, or after MLF. Oak can actually assist the bacteria during MLF. Keep the temperature at or slightly above what the specific bacteria, which you are using, requires. Sometimes if MLF doesn't seem to get started, you can raise the temperature just a little.

An MLF can sometimes make the Rice Crispie sound - snap, crackle, pop.

Good luck!

Robie, great explanation and thanks for the follow up. I can tell you I just finished about 20 barrels that did take about three months to finish mlf. Duhhh, 59 gallons vs. 6 gallons, I get it! I'll be sure to test my Chilean now after 4 weeks!. Makes sense the much smaller amount would mlf a lot quicker. I will be adding medium French spirals after mlf.

Sarah, Super Ferment and Fermaid is really the same thing. Adding it while going into the secondary assists your wine in finishing all the way and helps prevent stuck fermentations.

Wow! Thanks everyone for the great info! It is very useful info! In that case, I will probably put the wine in 3 different carboys (to give it plenty of head space) and the nutrient and let it ferment down a little bit more (depending on what the SG is on Saturday). I don't own a refractometer, so I'll just have to use my hydrometer to see when it might be almost done. Once it ferments down a little more I'll consolidate and top off 2 of the carboys, add the ML and oak, and let it finish up. I will probably take you up on your offer to walk me through the chromatography test Dan. I read the directions, but wasn't really 100% sure on how to interpret the results.

And Dan........we don't necessarily need to know EVERYTHING that goes on at work!

LMAO..Hey Sarah just taker her down to about 1.01-1.02 and you'll be ok.

A couple things to add here. If you bought mlb at your LHBS it may be Bacchus, which comes with a nutrient in the packet along with the bacteria, so no more would be necessary especially with some lees present.

Secondly doing mlf on a juice with a reading of .60 or 6g/L may end up with a bit of a flabby wine, because it is likely to lower that some more and smooth the wine out. It will give it more mouthfeel, but might lower the acid a touch too much. You may need to add back in a bit of acid later, just not malic.

Other than those things, you got some good solid information alrady. Good luck. It sounds like you are off to a great start with it.

Rock said:

I would wait press grapes at 1.000 or less.Wait 24 to 48 hrs rack off gross lees.Add your ml culture and nutrient.Keep warm around 70 or a bit above.Test in a month and keep testing until mlf is complete.Rack and add your s02.

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I agree. This is exactly How I handle MLF. But I do add SO2 prior to fermentation to kill off wild yeast and bacteria. SO2 will blow off during fermentation. I usually run my first test after 1 month after adding ML bacteria.

co innoculation of mlb and yeast maybe done , but you really should understand that this introduces risks.

the yeast may impede the mlb , or the mlb may cause a stuck alcoholic fermentation .

adding mlb when there is still sugar present also increases the risk of the production of volitile acidity or VA .

its not certain these things will happen if you add your mlb durring alcoholic ferment but it can happen.

I went to a winemaker magazine conference in Napa a while back and at the professional winemakers roundtable everyone of the pros said they would not do a coinnoculation because of the risk.

I know people who do it with great success but its not a part of my winemaking. I like to add it after pressing and initial racking while the wine sits on the fine lees.

to reduce the risk of h2s I like to get my wine off the gross lees asap , and since my first racking is a splash racking 24 hours after press , and this big wack of O2 can stun the mlb , I wait and add it after and then let the wine sit for 6-8 weeks on the fine lees and optimalo bubbling away with mlf.

once mlf tests done , I gently rack into barrels , and sulfite.

doing mlf on half and not on the other is not a great idea , all red wine (non kit) should go through mlf , its not just a flavour thing but a stability issue , natural mlf in the bottle would ruin your batch . if you have some kind of curiousity to taste the differnce why not just not do lf on one gallon , rather than risk the larger amount?

Good catch, Grapeman. I didn't pay attention to the acid reading.

Dan, I think a 12-week MLF would really cause me some sleepless nights. That's a long time without sulfite protection. But maybe that is more routine than I had imagined.

My Cali grapes from George took 3 months for MLF to finish. The late harvest, followed by late delivery of the grapes etc. I was having to add heat in the winery to keep it at 65 and keep the MLB happy long enough to finish out. Wine is turning out to be the best ever. Don't worry about Sulfites. It will probably finish out much quicker as your temps will be rising instead of falling making for happy MLB. See if you can find some Opti Malo Plus. That is the proper nutrient for MLB.

robie said:

Good catch, Grapeman. I didn't pay attention to the acid reading.

Dan, I think a 12-week MLF would really cause me some sleepless nights. That's a long time without sulfite protection. But maybe that is more routine than I had imagined.

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It's been one month since I started my MLF. As you can see from my Chromatagraphy test I am only half way through the MLF process.

The three yellow spots on the left represent Tataric, Malic and Lactic acid. The other spots represent my wine samples with the names of each written on the bottom of the report. When each has completely finished the MLF there will not be any yellow spots in the middle of the page.

Great thead! Please keep us posted on how yours works out. I love the visual on the testing paper! Thanks so much. I have lots of questions and curiosity on this topic too and thanks to the input on this forum I think when I graduate to grapes (instead of varietal concentrates) I will at least not be petrified. Carolyn

Thanks Dan! I'll let you know how it goes, I'm sure I'll have more questions as things move along.