Elderberry acid question

I started the first of this year's elderberry. I'm going by this recipe: http://honest-food.net/2012/08/19/elderberry-wine-recipe/

I crushed and heated the berries, added the water, sugar, and cooled to 125F.
Then I tested SG and got temp adjusted value of 1.042. So per WineCalc, I'll need another 3# of sugar. I won't add all at once, but start with 1/2 of that for the time being, then recheck.

My difficulty comes in pH and acid. I get a TA of 0.75%, but my pH comes in at 4.62. I recalibrated my pH meter and rechecked, no change. I'm using the Milwaukee MW102 with the temp probe.

I plan to cold soak this batch. So how should I handle the pH?

1) do nothing, cold soak, recheck after 3 days?
2) go by the TA not the pH and leave alone?
3) go be the pH and not the TA and adjust it to 3.6-ish?
4) split the difference?

For the time being, it is going in the fridge with no changes.

Thanks in advance.

Robert

Stressbaby:

Thanks for this post, I too am interested in what answers pop up. I started my elderberry wine 3 days ago. I used 4+ pounds of berries for the gallon with 1 can of grape juice concentrate, 2 lbs of sugar, 2 TBS of lemon & 2/3 cup of orange juice. First take on TA & pH I got 4.0 & 5 gm/l. I added 3.9 gm of acid blend. Waited 2 - 3 hours and retested. This time I got pH of 3.6 and 6.5 gm/l for the TA. Got Pasteur Red yeast rehydrating and will pitch it tomorrow. Guess I'll find out how all this goes next summer. My S.G. came out at 1.190 (Brix 21.5).

mikewatkins727 said:

Stressbaby:

Thanks for this post, I too am interested in what answers pop up. I started my elderberry wine 3 days ago. I used 4+ pounds of berries for the gallon with 1 can of grape juice concentrate, 2 lbs of sugar, 2 TBS of lemon & 2/3 cup of orange juice. First take on TA & pH I got 4.0 & 5 gm/l. I added 3.9 gm of acid blend. Waited 2 - 3 hours and retested. This time I got pH of 3.6 and 6.5 gm/l for the TA. Got Pasteur Red yeast rehydrating and will pitch it tomorrow. Guess I'll find out how all this goes next summer. My S.G. came out at 1.190 (Brix 21.5).

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Check your sg number. My hydrometer does not go that high. Unless you have a special one?

As to the PH and TA I am no help. I just wing it. However I do have 15 pounds of elderberries waiting in the freezer. With more to pick. This will be my first fresh elderberrie wine. All the details for elderberrie wine can be found on wvmjack.com site. ( I think that is correct.) he list all the correct PH and TA numbers. Maybe he will post here if we are lucky


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My bad! SG should be 1.090

How did you determine your TA? Did you use your pH meter or a titration kit? I have never trusted pH meters, especially in a complex mix like a must, those proteins like to stick to the little channels and block it up so I have to admit we only go by the TA using a titration after diluting the sample with distilled water, not tap water. WVMJ

I used a kit like this:
http://morewinemaking.com/products/emmorewineem-acid-test-kit.html

WVMountaineerJack said:

How did you determine your TA? Did you use your pH meter or a titration kit? I have never trusted pH meters, especially in a complex mix like a must, those proteins like to stick to the little channels and block it up so I have to admit we only go by the TA using a titration after diluting the sample with distilled water, not tap water. WVMJ

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My procedure is:

1. Measure 15 cc wine must into test cup. I use a 2 TBS dosage cup.
2. Measure pH. Ex: 3.8
3. Add 3 drops of phenolphthalein indicator.
4. Draw 10 cc of .2N NaOH into a syringe.
5. Add .1 cc of NaOH to test cup, stir & measure pH.
6. Keep adding .1 cc NaOH to test cup until pH > 6, then add NaOH 2 - 3 drops at a time until pH = 8.2. Once pH equals 8.2 you are the endpoint. Read the amount of NaOH used of the syringe barrel. This number will be your TA. Ex: 5.5 cc is .55% or 5.5 gm/l titratable acid.

Refinements to my procedures: I added mag stirrer (Hanna Instruments HI 190M Mag Stirrer < $100 & a set of 7 magnetic stir bars off of Amazon, ~$7) and a very small mag bar.

mikewatkins727 said:

My procedure is:

1. Measure 15 cc wine must into test cup. I use a 2 TBS dosage cup.
2. Measure pH. Ex: 3.8
3. Add 3 drops of phenolphthalein indicator.
4. Draw 10 cc of .2N NaOH into a syringe.
5. Add .1 cc of NaOH to test cup, stir & measure pH.
6. Keep adding .1 cc NaOH to test cup until pH > 6, then add NaOH 2 - 3 drops at a time until pH = 8.2. Once pH equals 8.2 you are the endpoint. Read the amount of NaOH used of the syringe barrel. This number will be your TA. Ex: 5.5 cc is .55% or 5.5 gm/l titratable acid.

Refinements to my procedures: I added mag stirrer (Hanna Instruments HI 190M Mag Stirrer < $100 & a set of 7 magnetic stir bars off of Amazon, ~$7) and a very small mag bar.

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Procedure is pretty standard. In step # 5 why are you adding NaOH prior to taking Ph reading. Even a little NaOH will throw off your reading. Ph should be just the juice with no NaOH. Not sure why you are using 15 ml. Amount isn't important providing you take that into consideration for the calculation. I use the program in my sig for all my calcutions. Its pretty handy since I can use it off my phone.

ffemt128 said:

Procedure is pretty standard. In step # 5 why are you adding NaOH prior to taking Ph reading. Even a little NaOH will throw off your reading. Ph should be just the juice with no NaOH. Not sure why you are using 15 ml. Amount isn't important providing you take that into consideration for the calculation. I use the program in my sig for all my calcutions. Its pretty handy since I can use it off my phone.

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Note in step 2 I take a pH reading. This reading is the pH of the wine must which is needed for the SO2 calculation.

My procedural steps are adapted from the test kit I originally bought. Fifteen mls is just a carry over.

mikewatkins727 said:

Note in step 2 I take a pH reading. This reading is the pH of the wine must which is needed for the SO2 calculation.

My procedural steps are adapted from the test kit I originally bought. Fifteen mls is just a carry over.

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Read right over #2. Odd situation you have there. I usually shoot for .75-.8 acid in my elderberry. I know usually it's pretty low to start.

I'm going to repeat all of the measurements tonight, and I'll check the TA both ways.

For elderberry, do you generally raise the TA with straight tartaric or acid blend?

ffemt128 said:

Read right over #2. Odd situation you have there. I usually shoot for .75-.8 acid in my elderberry. I know usually it's pretty low to start.

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Thanks for your comments. This is my very first elderberry wine and I am using a Jack Keller special. I view his and all other recipes as starting points; even my wife does not follow her recipes to the letter. Seeing as you shoot for .75 - .8 TA for the elderberry, just might follow suit.

Again, thanks.

Mike

Next question is how old is your NAOH? Our elders are cultivated ones, acid is much lower than 0.75 to start, we shoot for about 0.6 but that is just a personal preference. WVMJ

I retested. Not sure what happened the first time, some error obviously, but this time using the color change approach I get 0.25% and using the pH probe approach I get 0.33%. I split the difference at about 0.30%, and added tartaric (since that is what the recipe called for, not acid blend) to get to 0.70%. This dropped the pH to 3.45 which may be a little lower than I wanted but hopefully OK.

Stressbaby said:

I retested. Not sure what happened the first time, some error obviously, but this time using the color change approach I get 0.25% and using the pH probe approach I get 0.33%. I split the difference at about 0.30%, and added tartaric (since that is what the recipe called for, not acid blend) to get to 0.70%. This dropped the pH to 3.45 which may be a little lower than I wanted but hopefully OK.

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Those initial TA numbers are more inline with what I would expect to see with straight elderberry juice. The ph you ended with is in line as well.

I see you asked above which acid to add and see that you added tartaric. Either will work. A few years ago I did somewhat of an experiment. I had 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry. Both same starting SG, I used blend in one and tartaric in the other. Both batches ph and ta were almost identical. Anyway, at about 9-10 months in age after back sweetening, we did some blind taste testing. Results were that the tartaric batch tasted bolder and had better flavor where as the blend batch the tasters said it was a little smoother but not as bold in flavor.

The decision is yours, I've done it both ways since then with good results.

ffemt128 said:

Those initial TA numbers are more inline with what I would expect to see with straight elderberry juice. The ph you ended with is in line as well.

I see you asked above which acid to add and see that you added tartaric. Either will work. A few years ago I did somewhat of an experiment. I had 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry. Both same starting SG, I used blend in one and tartaric in the other. Both batches ph and ta were almost identical. Anyway, at about 9-10 months in age after back sweetening, we did some blind taste testing. Results were that the tartaric batch tasted bolder and had better flavor where as the blend batch the tasters said it was a little smoother but not as bold in flavor.

The decision is yours, I've done it both ways since then with good results.

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Nice. I like bold. Bold is good. Thanks.

Dragging up an old thread here.

We are now 2 years on and it is fair to reeval the 2014 elderberry. I ended up making two batches in 2014, one with acid blend, the other with straight tartaric. At one year, the acid blend batch was a little harsh and not nearly as good as the straight tartaric. But the gap has closed over the second year and the acid blend batch is catching up. I still like the tartaric better and in fact what I have gone to now is about 80% tartaric, 20% citric.

Thanks for the update! I guess I am going to look into using some tartaric on my next elderberry.

not to get to far off subject but I've read several times when you mentioned distilled water and with city and rural water i find that smart, but am i safe to assume that deep well (better then 200 feet) in lime stone then distilled don't seem all that important, but your opinion i respect,,,, so whatta you think... and as for me on acid i do all my adjustments using crab apples, but that's just my quirk and my opinion that the taste is better to me,
Dawg

WVMountaineerJack said:

How did you determine your TA? Did you use your pH meter or a titration kit? I have never trusted pH meters, especially in a complex mix like a must, those proteins like to stick to the little channels and block it up so I have to admit we only go by the TA using a titration after diluting the sample with distilled water, not tap water. WVMJ

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Dawg,
At the risk of speaking for @WVMountaineerJack, I think there is a difference between the water used to perform TA testing and the water used in the wine.