Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup

Boatboy24 said:

What really has me confused is that these were tasting fine - good actually - in primary.

@ceeaton: standard procedures followed, yes. They were all 'pressed' (remember, these were juice buckets with 1 or 2 lugs added - used paint strainer bags and just squeezed) between 1.000 and 1.010 SG. Racked the next day and pitched CH16.

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Well, they could of over sulfited the buckets, but then you'd think the yeast you pitched would have had issues. Still makes no sense. Hope some day you figure it out and explain it to us so we can avoid the issue in the future.

Update: took the Cab out of the barrel today and it measured 3.22! I need to go back and get my original readings, but as I recall, the numbers were almost spot on prior to fermentation. Regardless, I'm going to give this one the potassium carbonate treatment and put it in the garage while we still have some cool-ish weather (though its going to be in the upper 60's today). I need to re-measure the other 3 as well. The Carmenere did eventually finish MLF, so I'm interested to see where that one is on the acid scale. In the meantime, I'm hesitant to put anything else into that barrel, just in case there is some bug causing this. So I mixed up a Citric/KMeta solution and filled it up with good old water.

In the meantime, anyone know of potential triggers to make pH drop?

Boatboy24 said:

Update: took the Cab out of the barrel today and it measured 3.22! I need to go back and get my original readings, but as I recall, the numbers were almost spot on prior to fermentation. Regardless, I'm going to give this one the potassium carbonate treatment and put it in the garage while we still have some cool-ish weather (though its going to be in the upper 60's today). I need to re-measure the other 3 as well. The Carmenere did eventually finish MLF, so I'm interested to see where that one is on the acid scale. In the meantime, I'm hesitant to put anything else into that barrel, just in case there is some bug causing this. So I mixed up a Citric/KMeta solution and filled it up with good old water.

In the meantime, anyone know of potential triggers to make pH drop?

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This post made me dig through my notes, and thinking back, I remember several having trouble with mlfs' finishing. Mine wine is Chambourcin and I done mlf in the carboys, they finished pretty well on time.

I have been trying to figure out why I started out with a pH of 3.2, but after racking from barrel to age in carboy I discovered all my pHs had fallen to the starting 3.2 pH @ crush. I have on carboy that is due to go into the barrel now. So I ran a pH and a TA on it and it's @ 3.50 pH and 6.9g/L TA.

All of these carboys should be very close to these numbers, as I used 3 dirrerent yeast strains. MT, BM 4x4 and RC 212,, mlb in all three were VP 41.

All 3 that came from the barrel fell back to the starting pH of 3.2 . This surely can't be a coincidence, if three of mine and yours have done the same. This has confused me and made me have to use K-Bicarb, when I shoud of just had to use tartaric to dial in. This has been making me nuts trying to figure this drop out.

Would it be safe to asume the barrels could/can be making these adverse movements, if so why? (Acids from the oak barrel???) Mine is the Vadai , Hungarian Medium toast. {I not implying the barrels are bad, but (maybe) causing an acidic reaction.

Instead of running the carboy I was planning to run, I will pull a 2nd run batch that has increased numbers, to see if it pulls it down. I will transfer them today and keep you posted with the weekly readings.

@tnuscan FWIW, my Koch Cabernet Sauvignon from this fall has been barreled for several months. The pH was a tad high when it was time to load up the barrel so it was adjusted downward from 3.77 to 3.67 before going into the barrel. When I ran numbers on all my stuff yesterday, it was still at 3.67, carboy Koch wine still at 3.77. Barrel is a Vadai, Hungarian oak, medium toast.

Johnd said:

@tnuscan FWIW, my Koch Cabernet Sauvignon from this fall has been barreled for several months. The pH was a tad high when it was time to load up the barrel so it was adjusted downward from 3.77 to 3.67 before going into the barrel. When I ran numbers on all my stuff yesterday, it was still at 3.67, carboy Koch wine still at 3.77. Barrel is a Vadai, Hungarian oak, medium toast.

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Thanks Johnd, I was probably grabbing at straws, I can't figure it out, some kind of chemical reaction, maybe.

Tnuscan said:

Thanks Johnd, I was probably grabbing at straws, I can't figure it out, some kind of chemical reaction, maybe.

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When you think you see a pattern, you should explore it, don't sweat it. I'd think if Hungarian Med toast barrels were acidifying wines, we'd figure out how to use it to our advantage.

Other than pH/TA changes through AF / MLF and CS, we shouldn't be seeing drastic changes in our wines pH/TA that we don't initiate. When one of those isn't responsible, I first suspect my chemicals, equipment, or process; is / was my meter clean and calibrated?; are / were my chems fresh?; did I make some goofy mistake reading something wrong?, did I add tartaric acid instead of sulfite?, were acid additions well mixed?, did I degas samples properly?, did I let my wine get cool and get a little CS action by mistake?, that sorta stuff. Even worse, is some nasty critter feeding on my acid? But you should be able to smell and taste that....

Me tinks me has wine gremlins.

OK, the Cab started out @ 3.44. Never did get MLF complete on it. Now @ 3.22. Maybe if MLF did ever take off, I'd be at 3.55-3.65 about now. But no such luck. Still not sure why the MLF never took off, though at 3.22 pH, that could be it. As I mentioned, I'll give it the K-bicarb treatment and go from there. All 4 wines ranged from a little to a lot low last time I tested. Will remeasure the rest and proceed based on those results.

I would bet either sulfite overage or something else came in on the order as it was being shipped.

Tnuscan said:

I would bet either sulfite overage or something else came in on the order as it was being shipped.

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Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well.

What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.

I'm on it,,, up,up and away.

Boatboy24 said:

Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well.

What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.

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@Boatboy24
The answer is Both affects or inhibits the MLB.

EDIT: Free and bound the Total SO2.

Tnuscan said:

@Boatboy24
The answer is Free SO2 affects or inhibits the MLB. Answer was given from Cornell University.

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Well shucks. There goes that theory.

Boatboy24 said:

Well shucks. There goes that theory.

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I posted this once, but it didn't show up in the thread, here goes again.......... A quote below from the Morewine MLF Manual online:
"D) SO2:
Most winemakers know that a high “free” SO2 level can inhibit
ML bacteria, and that if you want to carry out an MLF then
you usually don’t sulfite the wine until after the fermentation
has completed. However, it is crucial to realize that “bound”
SO2 also has a negative affect on the bacteria. This is because
while “bound” SO2 is 5 to 10 times less active than “free” SO2,
at high enough levels it too can hinder bacterial growth. So, if
you want to do an MLF on a particular wine not only do you
need to be aware of how much “free” SO2 is in the wine, you
also need to keep tabs on the portion that is “bound” as well.
These two portions combined are referred to as “total” SO2
and the following SO2 levels are recommended by Lallemand
Malolactic Fermentation
A MoreManual !™ by Shea A.J. Comfort
© Copyright 2011 MoreFlavor! Inc.
as being favourable MLF conditions: 0–10ppm “free”, and 0–30ppm “total”.
Note that in general, if you crush and add a single 50ppm “total” SO2 addition up front, by the time the fermentation is over you will usually have around 20–25ppm as “total” and 0–10ppm as “free”. In other words, you should be well within the recommended ranges. (Keep in mind, however, that this amount will vary with different must compositions and fermentation temperatures)."

I inquired about how the Chileans were shipped and was told that they were sprayed with an so2 solution, bagged with so2 gas, in a refrigerated container infused with so2.

A Chemist truly has the upper hand at winemaking.

Boatboy24 said:

Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well.

What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.

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@Boatboy24 Ok, time for me to eat crow. I just spoke with another person that stated that TOTAL SO2(free and bound) Did affect stun/kill MLB. And that this over exposure was common on fruits shipped into the US from that area/distance. So if you used only the required amount then the TOTAL SO2 would have been over the Threshold of the MLB to survive.

As Johnd's post stated it is TOTAL SO2. Sorry for the wrong information, I was just misinformed by a professional. Goes to show we all make mistakes. lol.

They also stated that One could use the Ripper method for TOTAL SO2 however they were not 100% accurate.

So I think you've found your culprit. [Total SO2]

Tnuscan said:

@Boatboy24 Ok, time for me to eat crow. I just spoke with another person that stated that TOTAL SO2(free and bound) Did affect stun/kill MLB. And that this over exposure was common on fruits shipped into the US from that area/distance. So if you used only the required amount then the TOTAL SO2 would have been over the Threshold of the MLB to survive.

As Johnd's post stated it is TOTAL SO2. Sorry for the wrong information, I was just misinformed by a professional. Goes to show we all make mistakes. lol.

They also stated that One could use the Ripper method for TOTAL SO2 however they were not 100% accurate.

So I think you've found your culprit. [Total SO2]

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Thanks!! Still trying to figure out why the pH dropped, but this likely explains the lack of MLF. If I could nail down why it tastes like overly acidic, dirty dishwater, I'll be on to something.

Boatboy24 said:

Thanks!! Still trying to figure out why the pH dropped, but this likely explains the lack of MLF. If I could nail down why it tastes like overly acidic, dirty dishwater, I'll be on to something.

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Did you notice this dishwater taste, before mlb was added, or after?

@Boatboy24 after reading I seen it was after mlb was added.

I read you might try yeast hulls @ 1g/L, in the wine, see if it removes the smell.

Tnuscan said:

@Boatboy24 after reading I seen it was after mlb was added.

I read you might try yeast hulls @ 1g/L, in the wine, see if it removes the smell.

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Thanks. Gonna see what the K-Bicarb does. In the case of my 2015 Cab, which also became acidic on me, the K-Bicarb removed the acidity and brought some fruit forward. I'm hoping for a similar result. If it smells bad, I'll try hulls.