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Old 07-25-2016, 12:16 PM   #11
jswordy
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Yes they do, but they also may be waiting for months to get service, ie: MRI, specialist, etc. When I was competing on a regular basis, I had many Canadian friends complain of that system. We used to tear/strain numerous muscles, ligaments, etc. We would tell them to just go get an MRI and quit guessing what was wrong, they would tell us it was at least 3 months before they could get in.
You are correct, some of us pay dearly each month(I am fortunate to have low premiums with great coverage at my employer) but we are comparing apples to oranges..............or muscato to merlot.
My BIL and his family live in Canada. They never wait. That is pretty much a contrived argument for the US political market. There are always gripers in every system, so it is easy to cherry-pick those or carefully craft the circumstances to make a compelling argument when it is made entirely out of context. The overall Canadian data are favorable.

An MRI for a muscle tear or strain? You're kidding. Only in the USA! Part of the reason our healthcare costs are out of control.

BIL broke his leg (which is of course something serious for which you do need medical intervention) in the US, while visiting our area once. Pulled out his Canadian insurance card at the hospital, and that was that. All was paid for.

He will tell you that if you are a Canadian attempting to use high level services for comparatively minor injuries, you will have to wait. But you do get served. And his family never waits any longer than a US family does for an appointment. That's because they don't abuse the system.

He will also readily tell you they pay higher taxes for the service. But no one in Canada risks bankruptcy from a single serious medical event like they do in the USA. If you don't think that's a real deal here, you should speak to my other friend, who owns lots of apartments and houses. He says by far the biggest ding against renters' credit is a single serious medical event they struggle to pay back. He says he usually cuts them slack on that, if all else is well. With universal healthcare, they would be free of that worry. Just like people in all the other developed countries of the world.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #12
wineforfun
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An MRI for a muscle tear or strain? You're kidding. Only in the USA!
Seriously? Then explain how I was to know I had a bicep tendon ready to separate from the bone and my rotator torn in two places?
Take some ibuprofen? Did it, doesn't diagnose anything.
An X-ray? Don't think so, did it, that shows no more than bone damage, not tendon and ligaments.
Someone "feeling around"? Don't think so.
Only step left is MRI.

How do you think an athlete figures out if an ACL, MCL, etc. is torn or not?

These examples are the point of an MRI.

Not sure what to make of the whole BIL comment. All I can tell you is what numerous Canadian athletes on a strongman message board used to tell us. Being I don't live there, I can't comment for a fact.
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:36 PM   #13
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Sorry DJ , but the data themselves very strongly suggest that Canadians' access to and benefits from their healthcare system are by far much better than the access we have to our healthcare system and the benefits we think we get from ours. (see for example the work of Wm. Cockerham - who has no political ax to grind )... Infant mortality and longevity and life expectancy after a diagnosis of a serious and life threatening condition are all significantly worse in the USA than just about any other industrialized country on the planet. That there are anecdotal examples to contradict this does not itself challenge the data. (Greece has an infant mortality rate of 2.3 deaths per 1000 births - ours is 6.1 . In 2010, male life expectancy in the USA was 76.2 years. In Italy it was 79.4 (Cockerham , Medical Sociology , 2016 pps 388 and 389) - Canada's infant mortality for the same time period was 4.9 deaths per 1000 births and their longevity for males was 78.8 years.... But hey! We have private insurance...


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Old 07-25-2016, 07:14 PM   #14
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Seriously? Then explain how I was to know I had a bicep tendon ready to separate from the bone and my rotator torn in two places?
Take some ibuprofen? Did it, doesn't diagnose anything.
An X-ray? Don't think so, did it, that shows no more than bone damage, not tendon and ligaments.
Someone "feeling around"? Don't think so.
Only step left is MRI.

How do you think an athlete figures out if an ACL, MCL, etc. is torn or not?

These examples are the point of an MRI.

Not sure what to make of the whole BIL comment. All I can tell you is what numerous Canadian athletes on a strongman message board used to tell us. Being I don't live there, I can't comment for a fact.
DJ...I happen to think our health care would be much better if we spent money on MORE MRI machines instead of Ohhh, say a "mission" to Mars. The mission is to spend big amounts of tax dollars. I suspect one day they will discover that is no freaking air out there to breathe and that my friend is very hazardous to ones health. Plenty of hot air down here for free.

 
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:33 AM   #15
wineforfun
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Sorry DJ , but the data themselves very strongly suggest that Canadians' access to and benefits from their healthcare system are by far much better than the access we have to our healthcare system and the benefits we think we get from ours. (see for example the work of Wm. Cockerham - who has no political ax to grind )... Infant mortality and longevity and life expectancy after a diagnosis of a serious and life threatening condition are all significantly worse in the USA than just about any other industrialized country on the planet. That there are anecdotal examples to contradict this does not itself challenge the data. (Greece has an infant mortality rate of 2.3 deaths per 1000 births - ours is 6.1 . In 2010, male life expectancy in the USA was 76.2 years. In Italy it was 79.4 (Cockerham , Medical Sociology , 2016 pps 388 and 389) - Canada's infant mortality for the same time period was 4.9 deaths per 1000 births and their longevity for males was 78.8 years.... But hey! We have private insurance...
Bernard,
Not arguing the point for or against Canadian, Universal, etc. healthcare. Because for me, I have excellent healthcare and costs. But I am in the minority.


My point was the comment about getting an MRI due to a muscle tear. I had competed at a pretty high level for over a year with quite a bit of pain in my shoulder/bicep area. I was always "oh, it will go away". Gob on the icee hot, and keep moving. Well, after a year, and then being able not to lift a 20lb. dumbbell when I used to handle 120lb. dumbbells, it was time to see what was wrong.
The only way to know was an MRI. The same thing holds true for any professional athlete with muscle, ligament or tendon issues.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:58 AM   #16
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Wow. My brief rant about cost justification to brew/vint alcohol at home quickly got out of hand.

The point I was trying to make is that it really depends on your regional costs to understand if there's a financial benefit.


Back off-topic...
As a Canadian: I understand that there are wait times for elective diagnostics & surgeries. This isn't unknown - and emergency procedures are, obviously, given much higher priority. In fact: the OECD, in 2013, had quite a scathing report that noted Canada's "need for reduced waiting time". http://www.quotidianosanita.it/alleg...ato2476022.pdf
But delays are offset where I can use private clinics in many cases, within Canada, covered part or entirely by my provincial health plan for diagnostics. From my vantage point: there shouldn't be an issue with MRI wait times for @wineforfun 's buddy going through the right channels.
I am fortunate, in that, my employer has additional health insurance coverage that provides me additional options. And further fortunate, in OECD's report broken down by province, my own performed near the top within the country.

I'd rather not get into the politics of universal health care policies. Because, in the end, I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.

 
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:45 AM   #17
wineforfun
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I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.
Best statement in this thread.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:57 AM   #18
jswordy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikedlemon View Post
Wow. My brief rant about cost justification to brew/vint alcohol at home quickly got out of hand.

The point I was trying to make is that it really depends on your regional costs to understand if there's a financial benefit.


Back off-topic...
As a Canadian: I understand that there are wait times for elective diagnostics & surgeries. This isn't unknown - and emergency procedures are, obviously, given much higher priority. In fact: the OECD, in 2013, had quite a scathing report that noted Canada's "need for reduced waiting time". http://www.quotidianosanita.it/alleg...ato2476022.pdf
But delays are offset where I can use private clinics in many cases, within Canada, covered part or entirely by my provincial health plan for diagnostics. From my vantage point: there shouldn't be an issue with MRI wait times for @wineforfun 's buddy going through the right channels.
I am fortunate, in that, my employer has additional health insurance coverage that provides me additional options. And further fortunate, in OECD's report broken down by province, my own performed near the top within the country.

I'd rather not get into the politics of universal health care policies. Because, in the end, I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.
There are wait times and rationing for healthcare in the USA, too. We just do it by type of insurance and ability to pay. LOL... this is so very true! Don't take my word for it, check the national statistics for yourself.

There are also tiers of US care quality, based on insurance and ability to pay. That tiered approach can mean that for the same illness, Patient A on bare-bones insurance gets a different treatment course than Patient B with gold plated insurance, so Patient A dies.

And the fact remains, the USA is the only developed country in the world where even middle class citizens go bankrupt after a single catastrophic health event. That's not a category where I want to be shouting, "We're Number One!"

Some may say this is a political issue. I think not. I think no matter who is "in power," if I live in the wealthiest country in the world, and if Croatia and Moldova can provide universal healthcare to their citizens (and they do), then we should do it, too, on some level. Catastrophic health event support would be a really good start. Let's get rid of those medical bankruptcies.

As far as athletes who abuse their bodies as part of their sport, they can buy added insurance to cover that. But the fact is, drop of a hat MRIs and other expensive diagnostic procedures that are now commonly used in place of good doctor diagnostic training because they are profit centers are what makes our healthcare costs spiral at the highest rate in the world. That is killing our economy. Again, not politics. Facts that are easily found. And the fact is, insurance companies do ration these diagnostic procedures in the USA to try to contain costs.
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