Need help with my first euro styled grape wines!

seth8530 · Jun 22, 2013

Hello everyone, first I would like to thank JohnT on his excellent commentary on the differences between hot and cold fermentation. Second, I would like to ask your advice on what is going to be rather large batch of wine (24 gallons).

This fall I plan on fermenting 24 gallons of wine from juice and grape skins. I plan on making 12 gallons of chard and 12 gallons of a yet to be determined red. I do not have the ability to crush or press grapes where I live so instead I will be taking my 24 gallons of juice and then I will ferment them on either dried grape skins of possibly a single lug of grapes to give some extra character. Does that sound like a good idea?

The next major challenge is fermentation temperature. If I have done my reading correctly if you ferment hot you tend to get better colour extraction and some other things ( not sure what please help!) but if I ferment cold I will get better aroma and a cleaner fermentation as well as fruitier flavours ( sounds good to me) . The thing is I am not sure why you would ferment hot if the only major reward was colour when cold fermentation sounds like it will result in a more flavour full wine..

So what I am considering doing is breaking the two wines up into6 gallon batches and fermenting one hot (80+ ish degrees) and then fermenting the other 6 gallons gold ( 50 to 60 ish) with the hope of being able to first see the differences in the fermentation techniques and second being able to blend them at the end if needed.

I of course plan on oaking both batches and I plan on testing out what I have learned about fermaidO as well. Yeast type is yet to be determined but I plan on avoiding ec-1118 and using a nice gentle yeast to try and achieve a full flavoured fermentation.

If anyone has any advice or insight into my plan that would be greatly appreciated. Also, some suggestions on a nice red wine to try and ferment out would be great as well as some commercial examples of wines that showcase the differences between hot and cold ferments would be interesting.

FABulousWines · Jun 22, 2013

Seth, that sounds like a very scientific approach and I am anxious to see what you learn! If you have any 3 gal carboys it might also be interesting to split batches and test various oakings and/or raisins in secondary, no?

Deezil · Jun 22, 2013

12 gallons of chard..onnay? onel?

As for the temp questions..

If you ferment warmer, on skins, you get better extraction all-around. This means an increase in color, acids, tannins; the extra extraction usually means longer aging time.

The warmth generates a more vigorous fermentation due to increased metabolism on the part of the yeast, that blows off a lot of the delicate aromas and transforms the original fruit flavors into something with more body and mouthfeel. It can also lead to different characteristics depending upon the yeast strain used - some dont tolerate higher temps well and will throw off-odors or make excessive amounts of VA; some tolerate the heat but will bring spiciness or some other quality if you're not paying attention.

All that said, warmer fermentations are usually used on red grape wines. With a few exceptions, white wines are fermented cooler because the heat destroys so many aspects that make white wines desirable. One of these exceptions however is chardonnay.

I may be wrong, but I believe that when chardonnay is fermented warmer, it's fermented without skins as most white wines are, because the object is the body and mouthfeel from fermenting the yeast warmer, not increased tannins or acidity from fermenting on the skins at a warmer temp.

Most other white wines dont mesh well with the increased mouthfeel and body from fermenting the yeast warmer, nor do they mesh well with all the tannins found in the grapes, unless made in a select few specific styles generally designed for long-term aging.

Keeping the temperature down, keeps the metabolism of the yeast down, that I mentioned earlier. Keeping them in check, helps to retain those fruity aromas and helps keep the yeast from overly-transforming the flavors in the wine away from the original-juice characteristics.

Cooler temps resulting in less vigorous fermentations can become susceptible to the atmosphere due to lack of CO2 protection, and can sometimes for this reasoning, be fermented under an airlock

Both white and red wines can be cold soaked - a rather controversial theory as of late - pre-fermentation; the theory states that when grapes are crushed and left to sit on the skins for an extended period, water-soluble acids, phenols, etc, leach from the skins and into the juice in greater concentration than if the grapes were just crushed and the juice pressed off. Research is hit or miss, depends on what side of the fence you stand on, I happen to think the theory holds some weight myself but.. I'm probably the minority.

This is entirely different from the temperature difference points I mentioned above, although the reason I bring this up is some winemakers use cold soaking in white wines as an alternative, to get some of the benefits of the skins without having to ferment on skins potentially picking up negative attributes (per wine style)

robie · Jun 22, 2013

One does not want to ferment a chardonnay on any skins, period.

If you were doing fresh/frozen chardonnay grapes, you would first press the grapes to get the juice only and remove all the skins. Next, the juice would be allowed to settle out all the solids still in the juice. After that, the juice is racked off the stuff that settles out, then fermented.

So, you would never want to reintroduce skins back into the juice. If you don't follow this and start fermenting with clean juice, the chard will be very, very rough and most likely very disappointing.

There would be nothing practical to gain by purposely doing a hot fermentation on a chardonnay. The fruit flavor comes across much better with a cold fermentation. Otherwise, you would be blending away the nice fruitiness.

Deezil · Jun 22, 2013

robie said:
One does not want to ferment a chardonnay on any skins, period.

If you were doing fresh/frozen chardonnay grapes, you would first press the grapes to get the juice only and remove all the skins. Next, the juice would be allowed to settle out all the solids still in the juice. After that, the juice is racked off the stuff that settles out, then fermented.

Gotcha; same process I used on my Riesling

seth8530 · Jun 22, 2013

FABulousWines said:
Seth, that sounds like a very scientific approach and I am anxious to see what you learn! If you have any 3 gal carboys it might also be interesting to split batches and test various oakings and/or raisins in secondary, no?

That would be the inner scientist in me screaming to get out. I wont have any 3 gallon carboys on hand nor do I want to suffer the racking losses from doing that.. But that would be a good addition to the experiment.

Deezil said:
12 gallons of chard..onnay? onel?

As for the temp questions..

If you ferment warmer, on skins, you get better extraction all-around. This means an increase in color, acids, tannins; the extra extraction usually means longer aging time.

The warmth generates a more vigorous fermentation due to increased metabolism on the part of the yeast, that blows off a lot of the delicate aromas and transforms the original fruit flavors into something with more body and mouthfeel. It can also lead to different characteristics depending upon the yeast strain used - some dont tolerate higher temps well and will throw off-odors or make excessive amounts of VA; some tolerate the heat but will bring spiciness or some other quality if you're not paying attention.

All that said, warmer fermentations are usually used on red grape wines. With a few exceptions, white wines are fermented cooler because the heat destroys so many aspects that make white wines desirable. One of these exceptions however is chardonnay.

I may be wrong, but I believe that when chardonnay is fermented warmer, it's fermented without skins as most white wines are, because the object is the body and mouthfeel from fermenting the yeast warmer, not increased tannins or acidity from fermenting on the skins at a warmer temp.

Most other white wines dont mesh well with the increased mouthfeel and body from fermenting the yeast warmer, nor do they mesh well with all the tannins found in the grapes, unless made in a select few specific styles generally designed for long-term aging.

Keeping the temperature down, keeps the metabolism of the yeast down, that I mentioned earlier. Keeping them in check, helps to retain those fruity aromas and helps keep the yeast from overly-transforming the flavors in the wine away from the original-juice characteristics.

Cooler temps resulting in less vigorous fermentations can become susceptible to the atmosphere due to lack of CO2 protection, and can sometimes for this reasoning, be fermented under an airlock

Both white and red wines can be cold soaked - a rather controversial theory as of late - pre-fermentation; the theory states that when grapes are crushed and left to sit on the skins for an extended period, water-soluble acids, phenols, etc, leach from the skins and into the juice in greater concentration than if the grapes were just crushed and the juice pressed off. Research is hit or miss, depends on what side of the fence you stand on, I happen to think the theory holds some weight myself but.. I'm probably the minority.

This is entirely different from the temperature difference points I mentioned above, although the reason I bring this up is some winemakers use cold soaking in white wines as an alternative, to get some of the benefits of the skins without having to ferment on skins potentially picking up negative attributes (per wine style)

Good post, if I fermented cold do you feel like those batches would end up tasting thin, kind of like a fruit wine with too much water in it? I plan on oaking so I can get all the tannins I need from that.. even though the tannins are slightly different in nature from grape tannins. The acids are perhaps a different story.... and colour is one of those things I find nice but secondary to taste and mouth feel.

If I do this, I will plan on trying to keep the skins on the must for atleast or until l I need to put it into secondary.

Deezil · Jun 22, 2013

seth8530 said:
Good post, if I fermented cold do you feel like those batches would end up tasting thin, kind of like a fruit wine with too much water in it? I plan on oaking so I can get all the tannins I need from that.. even though the tannins are slightly different in nature from grape tannins. The acids are perhaps a different story.... and colour is one of those things I find nice but secondary to taste and mouth feel.

If I do this, I will plan on trying to keep the skins on the must for atleast or until l I need to put it into secondary.

Fermenting cold wont make a white wine come out thin, no; that's in the grapes. If it rained a bunch prior to harvest and the grapes were picked while full of water - wallah! thin wine..

If you want to bolster the body of the wine though, you could read into additives like booster blanc/rouge, opti-white/-red, ft blanc/rouge or ft blanc soft / rouge soft; yeast-derived additives & tannins

Chardonnay - have you considered MLF or battonage?

Or MLF on whatever the red may be?

As robie pointed out (I just wasnt sure if chardonnay was an exception), you dont want to ferment white wines with skins & seeds.. And you'll want to clarify the wine; give it 24hrs prior to fermentation, to settle & racking off the solids that sediment out during that period..

You could almost skip the lug of chardonnay grapes & swap it out for booster blanc and opti-white additions.. Although you could macerate the lug separate, press it off, clarify that juice, add it to the 12 gallons and then booster blanc + opti-white the whole thing.. You might get a finished 12 gallons, that route

Give my Riesling thread a read; I crushed by hand, pressed by hand, clarified, split the batch and fermented with 2 yeasts then blended

seth8530 · Jun 22, 2013

Can you link me to your thread? And thanks for the information, looks like I might skip using the skins for the chard. I do plan on using MLF on both the white and red wine. BTW, what do you think of sur di lie (Please forgive my spelling) and what is battonage?

BTW, @ deezil and robie their is a really good chance that the juice I will be using will be missing the solids in it. It is fresh frozen from M&M. So, if I wont be getting actual skins for the chard it looks like I might need to spend some extra money on the juice just to make sure it is of the utmost quality.

Deezil · Jun 22, 2013

seth8530 said:
Can you link me to your thread? And thanks for the information, looks like I might skip using the skins for the chard. I do plan on using MLF on both the white and red wine. BTW, what do you think of sur di lie (Please forgive my spelling) and what is battonage?

Deezil said:
Gotcha; same process I used on my Riesling

I believe what you're hinting at, is the battonage that I mentioned.. Letting the wine sit on fine lees and stirring those lees into suspension for a fatter mouthfeel and rounder body in the wine

FABulousWines · Jun 22, 2013

The reason I asked about oaking is that my wife and I like Chards that are oaked. Whenever we visit a winery that ages in stainless, we feel the chard comes off a bit too crisp, sharp even. I plan to do a chard at some point and plan to oak heavily. But it's your wine, see what you like.

seth8530 · Jun 22, 2013

Deezil said:
I believe what you're hinting at, is the battonage that I mentioned.. Letting the wine sit on fine lees and stirring those lees into suspension for a fatter mouthfeel and rounder body in the wine

Ahh thanks, just a different name for it. I gave your thread a read.. That was a lot of grapes to hand separate and crush. I feel for ya lol. So I take it you are going for a dry wine at about 12% for yours?

FABulousWines said:
The reason I asked about oaking is that my wife and I like Chards that are oaked. Whenever we visit a winery that ages in stainless, we feel the chard comes off a bit too crisp, sharp even. I plan to do a chard at some point and plan to oak heavily. But it's your wine, see what you like.

Yeah, I will def oak the chard. I had an amazing chard from Ramey, it cost about 30 bucks but man it was worth it and it is what inspired me to try and make a chard. My go to oak is Hungarian med+ but I feel like black pepper and tobacco is not quite what I want for a chard. Might be that I will use french unless you have any suggestions.

But I agree, I really want to make a nice round chard, defiantly not tart. Something like a red wine in mouth feel and roundness. Possibly mineral character if I can manage it.

Need help with my first euro styled grape wines!

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