Getting information from Beginners forum

I have read several threads lately from people who have identified themselves as noobies. Some of these people have become very frustrated and even angry because they are not getting the help they need.
I would like to suggest again that when a nooby asks a question they be directed to the tutorials on the home page and the stickies at the beginning of "Beginners Wine Making Forum" before trying to answer questions that do not provide enough information. We cannot communicate with these people if they don't know the language we are using.
This is the best of the wine making forums, but we can do better.
LOUMIK

Great advice loumik, I tried telling someone recently to look at our tutorials and even reference Jack Keller's site and got told I had an attitude and was rude. I have come to the conclusion that there will always be those who will take your advice and ask a thousand questions and learn as they go and then there will always be those that will expect you to hold their hand constantly, ask a thousand questions and never learn a thing and it will be your fault.

One thing I learned years ago while teaching computer classes is that there are two kinds of people, similar to what Julie said. There are those that want you to tell them every step to take and won't do it on their own. They need a notebook to write every step down to follow. Then there are those that you can tell the basics to and they think about a logical next step and try it on their own. There is no right or wrong way, but the thinkers and tryers are easier to work with. The same applies here, just to those that need the extra hand holding and recipe book, don't throw the teacher under the bus before you have the road map.

I might add, the third is the innovative....
They follow instructions are advise then they completely change the recipe that they are suppose to follow..
They change the fruit/water ratio,they change the sugar sg, they change everything about it...then

i meant to say.....when there wine taste terrible, are guits fermenting, are
etc , they want answers as to why, then get mad becuase they did something wrong, in the first place..

I know what you're saying James. Some people screw up their ferments horribly because they didn't ask for direction BEFORE they started. Then they have a mess that, sometimes, is beyond redemption and they get frustrated because we can't perform a resurrection!

Now I understand trying things yourself--and not wanting to have their hands held like a baby. But my personal preference is to ask for help and direction before you begin so that we can help you thru those first couple of ferments so you learn proper technique and so we can explain the chemical additions, etc. THEN new winemakers would have the basic knowledge to move ahead on their own. But it's not a perfect world. Some new winemakers are already frustrated with mistakes and problems and they come here with their fur standing on end to start with. And when they can't get what they need, that makes the frustration even higher and then we get the brunt of it.

I have to confess that if a winemaker has messed up really bad and it would take too much work to try to rescue what they've done---I just don't reply. Some of this stuff makes my head hurt too much--so I just bow out. But basically---I TRY to help. If I have disappointed anyone with advice or the lack thereof--well, some days I'm just not up to long explainations.

Perhaps one tack that might help reduce frustration is to ask folk asking for help in their first post to provide detailed information about the wine they are making. If a first post is to introduce themselves to the community such people may be novice wine makers but they come with some knowledge but if someone raises a question right off the bat I wonder if they tend to be folk who know less than they think they know and be more frustrated when wine making argot makes everyone here sound as if they come from another planet.
If you ask for detailed information and they respond with very poor information that suggests that they are unfamiliar with the most basic processes and equipment then members of the forum can perhaps respond in ways less frustrating to the "novice" and less frustrating to the community member who has spent their time in formulating their replies...

Answer to answer to ???????????????




we,ve been down this road many times before and many times i have been told i 'm wrong and if i didn't like the way the thread was going i could leave and so forth,if a person is starting out making wine for the first time and doesn't have the patients to read directions in a kit or studies some background before he or she begins the process and doesn't have the correct tools to start with,or is trying to make 1 gallon of something off the wall, then i can only do what i can for that person,that's why i take them one on one ,if they can 't seem to get it ,that is the most assured way they will,as you all can tell i stick to doing tutorials if they can't understand , that, then they can always pm me ,or i'll pm them and then the class begins,pictures are worth a thousand words and when you put them along side of verbiage, then it tends to make sense to a lot of people,sometimes being a mentor is not for all,and sometimes binging a student isn't either.

so were is the happy mediaum? somewhere in between and it's up to the student to listen and absorbe even if it takes awhile,if they truly have a desire to do what it takes and can afford the time and materials it demands to do the process, at least half right.then some of what they have done will start to stick and the balance is corrected over time.

these are just my oppions and i stand by them.

Also just my opinion. I am also new but have thrilled by the help I have received here when needed. I did understand that the newbie forum was the starting place and I read for weeks before even purchasing any supplies. I think most intelligent folks do something similar. I honestly believe that the problem newbie poster most of you are referring to actually came onto the forum with the clear intention to start controversy. The name was my first clue, and the heated response to helpful advice was the clincher. I think they are called gremlins, or something similar. So Julie et all others who tried to help, actual help was not what they were seeking. You all are great, so relax. Best winemaking forum on the web is this one, and I often tell people I meet in my daily life to seek it out if they seem honestly interested in trying their hand at wine making.

thanks again to all

Pam in cinti

cintipam they are called trolls on forums and what they are doing is trolling. I'n not sure if this one was or not, but most folks were offering this person help and the only one they replied to was one they had a beef with. Any reasonable person would just ignore that one person and try what the others say. Good luck to that person in finding a friendlier or more helpful forum.

I agree, that it would be helpful if new winemakers read the stickies first, however some do not even know where to start. Yet, I agree, I have read a few members who receive advice that does not sit too well with them; however, it would seem to me that these guys are the minority. I think we should keep in mind, just as some previous members have suggested, that these people might be a little on edge. All in all, let's not let a few bad eggs taint our view of new members asking redundent questions.

btw, this sentiment comes from my experience quite a while ago learning how to make wine of this forum.

What I did was....Look, listen, learn.

Joe

Gosh I agree with most everything said and would add that even as a oldbee I sometimes ask questions and don't do a proper search before. I really enjoy the discussion about a topic. Additionally there are a lot of folks interacting and posting with experience that were not around when many of the stickies were made.

Lastly a big thanks to the MODS and frequent posters. I don't read the Newbee threads unless their subject lines catch my interest. Somehow I just don't have the interest or patience to read and contribute to subjects like "need help" or "newbee question". I'm not proud of that just being honest. But when I see a subject line that says "there is something swimming in my carboy" or "my wine glows in the dark" then I click through and read and offer some stupid remark.

BernardSmith said:

Perhaps one tack that might help reduce frustration is to ask folk asking for help in their first post to provide detailed information about the wine they are making. If a first post is to introduce themselves to the community such people may be novice wine makers but they come with some knowledge but if someone raises a question right off the bat I wonder if they tend to be folk who know less than they think they know and be more frustrated when wine making argot makes everyone here sound as if they come from another planet.
If you ask for detailed information and they respond with very poor information that suggests that they are unfamiliar with the most basic processes and equipment then members of the forum can perhaps respond in ways less frustrating to the "novice" and less frustrating to the community member who has spent their time in formulating their replies...

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Bernard;
This is exactly what I was trying to get across in my initial comments above. Instead it appears that most of the people who have responded have chosen to be offended and take my comments as an attack upon them personally. I apologize to those that may be offended. That was not my intent.
All I was trying to get across is that we should stop dishing out information to those who have not provided adequate information to us in their questions. Refer them to the tutorials and stickies. Those noobies that will not try to educate themselves will probably not be sticking with wine making anyway. They are doomed to fail and as was mentioned above you cannot lead them by the hand and make their wine for them.
That's all I have to say on the subject. Again my apologies to any I may have offended.
LOUMIK

I read your original post again and didn't see anything offensive. I've seen posts where the noob didn't give much info and got told to provide more in a way that seemed a little impatient. But I've refrained from responding to noob questions a number of times because I can have an excessively sharp tongue. It hadn't occurred to me to suggest reading the tutorial and then provide more information when they have enough knowledge to intelligently describe what they've done/not done. Sounds like a good approach to me. And I have to agree with Tony about posts entitled "noob question," or "aggravatingly vague post title."

Loumik

WE HAVE A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION KNOW ONE SHOULD BE OFFENDED,AND I AGREE WITH ALMOST ALL OF WHAT HAS BEEN STATED SO FAR,BUT HOW DO WE ASSIST? HOW DO WE MAINTAIN THE GROWTH , WE TALK AND SHARE IDEAS AND IF ONE DOESN'T AGREE THEY DON'T HAVE TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC THEIR ARE OTHER SUBJECTS TO MOVE ON TO.
BUT ALL TO OFTEN WE GET THE "HELP ME MY ORANGE WINE IS GREEN"....AND NO STRUCTURE TO THE CONVERSATION.I THINK THAT IS THE TIME WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ASSIST NEED EITHER TO PM THE PERSON AND GET SOME DETAILS BEFORE THE QUESTION BECOMES SO DILUTED IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE "ON THE OPEN FORMAT" THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD TUTORIALS ALONG THE WAY AND PEOPLE TAKE THE TIME AND EFFORT TO ACCOMPLISH THAT END.
EXAMPLE: PUMPKINMANS,EDITORIAL ON TANNINS AND THE CAUSE AND EFFECT AND WHEN BEST TO APPLY,JUST ONE OF THE DIRECTIONS WE SHOULD SEND THESE NEW WINE MAKERS WHO HAVE HONEST QUESTIONS,ARMED WITH THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION AND SOME OF THEIR OWN ,ALONG WITH THE PM GUIDE IF NEED,THAT'S HOW WE TRULY HELP NEW WINE MAKERS ,STAY THE COURSE AND PROGRESSIVELY BECOME BETTER.

Myself, I enjoy helping new people. Yes, sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. But in the couple years that I've been on this site, most new winemakers have taken the info and run with it. If one or two people have been upset by what we've said, well that's a pretty good record.

I think we all should just carry on and do the best that we can.

Turock said:

Myself, I enjoy helping new people. Yes, sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. But in the couple years that I've been on this site, most new winemakers have taken the info and run with it. If one or two people have been upset by what we've said, well that's a pretty good record.

I think we all should just carry on and do the best that we can.

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I'll drink to that.
LOUMIK

Loumik,
I have to tell you it is tough to be a beginner. Yes you don't know the jargon, but even when you think you are getting some of it right things still go wrong.
Just use my experience, first year made 23 litres Cabernet - just good luck it was terrific (personal bias). Not enough, made 150 litres of Shiraz this year. pH at about 3.8 needed Tartaric acid (as I read from the notes I could find). Added Tartaric, and pH is still 3.7. Wanting to get to 3.6 at least repeated the dose. pH now was 3.1 - OOPS.
I now have 100 litres that is still at 3.2 (went through MLF). Played with the remainder, and found by experiment that could change the pH by chemical (Yuck) or by cold stabilising. Just need a fridge I can put a 100 litre container in.
Being in Australia, the next batch of grapes are on order.
With the right advice at the right time might have saved me a lot of stress. Who was to know Tartaric acid addition is not linear. I didn't see it in any web sites.

Yes I will work my way through this, but realise that there are some who take the more responsible approach of looking for advice and following it.

I for one can't say they are wrong.

Yes, Wellington--it IS hard being a beginner. I have alot of sympathy for that and is one of the reasons I try to explain things well. But don't be too hard on yourself. You don't learn 25 years of winemaking in one year. And you can always use Google to search for papers written on winemaking subjects from the Lab sites and even some universities who give winemaking courses. Lots of info out there, these days, to help you along.

When I was learning winemaking, there was no internet and very few people were making wine--it was alot harder to get any good info! These wine forums have been a big help, over the years. I learn new things all the time, which is one reason I like this hobby so much.

Where are you located? I'm interested in your user name--do you mean Wellington Ohio, or is this a different Wellington?