Newer to Winemaking

Hello everybody. So far I've made Selection International Pinot Noir and South African Pinotage. Both were bottled around xmas 2011. I don't think I did anything incorrectly, but I'm not too impressed yet. I see you need to age it at least 6 months. I'll wait of course, but I'm skeptical that it will improve very much. Any encouraging comments? Just poured the Pinot Noir and it's all yeasty and bubble gummie. I've bought $2.50 bottles of wine at Trader Joes that blow it away. Winexpert said these were equivalent to $20 bottles, but I can't see that happening. Advice? Is RJ Spanjols any better? Sorry for the negative starting post, but I'm being honest and hoping for the best because I'm having fun, but not getting the results desired. We'll see if by June they are equivalent even to a $3 bottle.

Dave

Dave:

The Trader Joes wine is how old? 2-3 years? or more? The best thing a winemaker can do is be patient. For those kits, at least 6 months. 1 year better.

I just had some 2 year old riesling (Selection Limited Edition)...great. Been drinking some 3 & 4 year old reds that I made. You've got to get to that point.

Btw, your wine is just getting over bottle shock. I find that most wines are good at bottling, and then get poor for maybe a month, before they start getting better again.

Steve

Welcome to the forum.

Instant gratifications is not something you will receive from wine making.

You are going to be pleasantly surprised at how wine will change over time.

It may take longer than 6 months, depending on the variety. I, personally, have never made a red that developed in less than 18 months.

Now, if you make a red kit, which contains a grape pack/skins, the change will take even longer.

Most red kit wine will always come out a little thinner than their commercial counterparts. Reds made with grape packs/skins are better.

Patience!

My take is a little different than the previous two posters. I've never been impressed with kit wines regardless of brand and/or amount of aging.

Also, in my experience, although a wine will definitely change greatly with aging, the raw components that determine whether a wine is of high quality or not are there even when the wine is very young. If the concentration, structure and balance are not there when young, it is not likely going to magically turn into a fine wine with age.

Just my two cents.

Manimal said:

Also, in my experience, although a wine will definitely change greatly with aging, the raw components that determine whether a wine is of high quality or not are there even when the wine is very young. If the concentration, structure and balance are not there when young, it is not likely going to magically turn into a fine wine with age.

Just my two cents.

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Yes, I agree, but it takes a little experience to "sort out" those qualities, when a wine is young, green, and tart. Something one gets better at with time and experience. The person, who started this thread, is not there, yet, but probably will be someday. What they need now is a little encouragement.

Wow! All I can say is if you don't like kit wines, don't buy them! (Obviously, you don't.) Not everyone is going to agree with you. For some, kits are the only thing readily available and price-wise. Kits are also a good way to break into home wine making; make a few kits, then move into fresh/frozen grape wines and fruit wines.

I'm not trying to tell people not to buy kits, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. But I do think that one should have a realistic idea of what to expect, and I don't think that giving the wine some time will necessarily make this wine reach the heights Dave is hoping for.

I have found that kits tend to be light in structure and concentration with an odd, confected and artificial flavour/aroma profile. There is a good possibility that Dave will also find that kit wines in general just do not deliver the qualities he enjoys. I think that he should know that he probably didn't do anything wrong in the production of his wine, but that some people just do not find that kit wines can compare to wines made from fresh/frozen grapes or juice.

I also think that it is important for new winemakers to understand the importance of the raw materials in the quality of the finished wine. You cannot make great wine with mediocre materials and in my opinion, kits are the vinous equivalent to fast food.

I will concede that kits offer a clearly structured and simple way for beginners to become familiar with the winemaking process and to gain some confidence. I started my winemaking journey with kits as well, and I don't think it is being discouraging to be honest about my experiences. What is discouraging is spending time and money on kit after kit only to be consistently disappointed.

I would encourage Dave to view these first experiences as necessary learning activities and to not get too down about the disappointing results. (And then I would encourage him to source some fresh juice or grapes once he is comfortable enough to attempt it!!)

Dave, don't be discouraged. This is a learning process and it takes time to master wine making. I congratulate you on choosing 15 liter kits to start. That is the minimum amount of concentrated juice I use. I suggest that you either obtain grape packs in the future or buy kits containing grape packs. I think you will find the wine more to your liking. At the least, I would add a pound or so of raisins to the fermenter for all red wines.

I respectfully have to disagree with Manimal's assessment of kits. I think there is definitely a place for them and that, at least in my experience, they can make a high quality wine. I have been involved in wine making since the late 1940's to one degree or another and have experienced both pleasure and disappointment with fresh juice, fresh grapes and kits. None is fool proof.

On your wines, what is it that you dislike about the wine? Is it too thin? Too light tasting? Off tasting? Too acidic? You did mention "bubble gum" taste which is probably coming from the potassium sorbate and it will lessen over time. My advice is to accurately describe your disappointment, tell us the "vitals" of your wine (i.e. variety, initial SG, acid level, start date and length of primary and secondary fermentation, etc) and you will find a wealth of guidance on this forum.

Thanks for the kind replies, I like them all! I'll go down some of the comments start to finish. I did notice that the wine was better when I bottled it and it seems to have gotten slightly worse, so now I think I am seeing that bottle shock concept. . . . really may need to wait. For the first wine, I stirred the heck out of it with the drill mounted paddle, trying not to introduce too much oxygen. Then a few weeks later, I received the "gas getter". I mounted it to my air compressor and was able to get tons more gas out of the wine. As the very nice man who sells it suggested, I compared it at that point. The wine went from almost undrinkable, to drinkable in 30 minutes of degassing with it. I spoke with him after that and really thought I was on to something "instant gratification" wise. Now after bottling, it seems to be poorer. Some qualities are thin, missing of additives (even though the kit contained oak, commercial wines sometimes smack you with vanilla, oak etc. flavors almost like they added something to it, that its not really there in these kits), bubble gum or something fake tasting. Next, I wanted to make a grape skins kit. Was looking at Winexpert Petit Verdot with Grape Skins because the manufacturer rep on a forum said it was drinkable almost immediately. Some of the comments here make it sound like the grape skins kits will need to age even longer before drinking? Manimals comments are fine, in fact, almost exactly what I was wondering, if it isn't decent at bottling, will it really get that much better with age? But, do I really know what decent is at this point. I'd like to meet up with someone in the Detroit area so we could share some of our kit wines and I could perhaps understand things better/quicker. I don't know too many vitals as Rocky was asking. I wrote down the specific gravity was 0.994 on 11/18/11 after secondary fermentation step measurement per instructions. I must say the wine is beautiful looking and very clear, but perhaps a bit thin. I topped this batch off with water as the kit instructed, but the South African Pinotage was topped off with a similar wine. I did this because I noticed the thin taste. My wife isn't fond of it yet, although she did say after drinking it for a few minutes she got used to it. My father in law said that the alcohol content seemed to be low and he thought if commercial wines were around 12.5 %, then this was about 8%, but what does he know and I took no measurements other that what the kit told me and they all were spot on with the instructions. I've got quite a few bottles left, so I'm going to let them age into Aril (try some then) and then age into June (try one again) and I'll see for myself how much it changes. Assuming it still doesn't get that great at 6 months, I'll wait until year or more at that point. I'm still debating whether I should start another kit or just use the $150 to buy tons of bottles of wine at Trader Joes or another large variety cheap wine shop. Knowing me, I'll probably do both and the bottles from trader joes can be used for my wine. Thanks for the comments so far. If anyone is in Detroit area, I'm on the East Side, let me know or send me a private comment. Thanks again!

Dave

Welcome to the forum. Most wines get much better after aging for a while. Even the skeeter pee is better after 6 months or so, but it usually ain't too bad when it is really young either. Anyway, hang in there, and bet they get better as time goes on. Arne.

Dave, if you are really interested in the ABV (Alcohol by Volume) of your wine, there is a way to determine it closely after the wine is finished. Take a measured quantity of wine, e.g. 250 ml and put it in a pan on the range. Run the heat up to about 180-190 degree F and hold it there for about 10 minutes. Alcohol will boil off at about 173 degrees F and water, of course, at 212 degrees F. That is why you have to keep the temp under 190 to be safe. After about 10 minutes, measure the volume of remaining liquid. The difference between what you started with and what you end up with is the volume of alcohol that boiled off. Take that amount divided by your starting amount and that will give you the % alcohol.

For example, if you start with 250 ml and cook off the alcohol and end up with 220 ml, you have "lost" 30 ml of alcohol. That amount, 30 ml, divided by the starting amount, 250 ml is 0.12, indicating 12% alcohol.

Dave welcome to the forum. I will tell you that I was a little dissapointed with the kit wines when I started also. I have made many kits now along with juices and SP. I will tell you that the kits are good and some great but the more you spend for them the better results you will get.(IMHO) I find that most of the deep reds I make do not really come into their own for about a year after bottling. I can still taste the greenness in the wine at 6 months. Make the kits and set them aside and like you said taste one at 6 then 9 then 12 months and I think you will be suprised how they change.

Getting all the CO2 out is really important for kits to taste decent.

One thing to consider is that kit wines do not have the same nose as a commercial wine and only the high end kits tend to match up with a decent store bought bottle.

Give your kit wines a year to come around before judging them and you will be pleasantly suprised.

I have noticed that with many of my red kit wines, when I first decant them, they have almost no nose at all. As they set in the decanter, the nose starts coming around, little by little. As a way to tell when the wine is ready to pour into glasses, I usually wait until the nose gets much better.

I think this is a trait of lots of kits wine, especially when they have a bit too much CO2 still present when they are bottled. (Yep, some of mine fall into that excess CO2 category as well, especially my earlier kit wines.)

I am noticing now almost 3 years into this money pit of a hobby (LOL) that any wine I made that has spent its entire life in glass (i.e. no barrel time) can actually sit with a cork in it (half way) and a glass poured out the first night and improve in bouquet and nose for upwards of 3-5 days.

We worry so much about trying to keep oxygen out of our wines through the whole process that they never get a chance to actually oxidize at all (which is what a barrel does slowly over time).

Try it sometime. Open a bottle, pour off a glass, stuff the cork back into it and let it sit a day or two then come back and try it again. You will notice a lot the second time around and a much improved wine.

ibglowin said:

I am noticing now almost 3 years into this money pit of a hobby (LOL) that any wine I made that has spent its entire life in glass (i.e. no barrel time) can actually sit with a cork in it (half way) and a glass poured out the first night and improve in bouquet and nose for upwards of 3-5 days.

We worry so much about trying to keep oxygen out of our wines through the whole process that they never get a chance to actually oxidize at all (which is what a barrel does slowly over time).

Try it sometime. Open a bottle, pour off a glass, stuff the cork back into it and let it sit a day or two then come back and try it again. You will notice a lot the second time around and a much improved wine.

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I agree. with all you said, especially about worrying over oxidation. Though it certainly can be done, one has to be pretty hard on a kit wine to oxidize it.

I have a 2 year old wine that I have to decant in a typical decanter for over 8 hours before it comes around at all. It gets even better 24 hours later. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself.

We kept a bottle of WE Choc Raspberry port going for 2 weeks. We would Vacu-vin it between pours (sometimes). It was really much better at the end.

tcreverb said:

Hello everybody. So far I've made Selection International Pinot Noir and South African Pinotage. Both were bottled around xmas 2011. I don't think I did anything incorrectly, but I'm not too impressed yet. I see you need to age it at least 6 months. I'll wait of course, but I'm skeptical that it will improve very much. Any encouraging comments? Just poured the Pinot Noir and it's all yeasty and bubble gummie. I've bought $2.50 bottles of wine at Trader Joes that blow it away. Winexpert said these were equivalent to $20 bottles, but I can't see that happening. Advice? Is RJ Spanjols any better? Sorry for the negative starting post, but I'm being honest and hoping for the best because I'm having fun, but not getting the results desired. We'll see if by June they are equivalent even to a $3 bottle.

Dave

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Well it's almost May, so it's been 4 months in bottles. Both still terrible and down the drain they went. I will probably wait until about September before trying again. I have thought about trying a white wine kit or kit from another maker, but I really am not impressed at this point and think that the gas getter, corker, bottles etc. may end up on Craigslist soon. It is a shame that a kit can't produce the equivalent of even a $3 bottle of wine. I won't even give this wine away if it stays this terrible. I literally can compare this to $3 bottles at Trader Joes and it just doesn't even compete. My wife thinks the whole thing is a joke and I am angry that kit makers even exist if this quality is normal. I'll post again in several months and we'll see. Goodbye for now.

cpfan said:

Dave:

The Trader Joes wine is how old? 2-3 years? or more? The best thing a winemaker can do is be patient. For those kits, at least 6 months. 1 year better.

I just had some 2 year old riesling (Selection Limited Edition)...great. Been drinking some 3 & 4 year old reds that I made. You've got to get to that point.

Btw, your wine is just getting over bottle shock. I find that most wines are good at bottling, and then get poor for maybe a month, before they start getting better again.

Steve

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Steve, I am reading some of the posts again. I won't throw it out yet, my time to taste again just keeps expanding . . . 1 month . . . . 3 months . . . . . 9 months . . . . . . I may wait until 2013 before trying again so as not to waste, but my hopes are not high.

Maybe try making beer. Doesn't sound like you have the patience required for wine making. Honestly, 6 mo is the very minimum wait time for a lower/mid range kit to become semi drinkable and your ready to dump this at less than 6 months it appears.......

Only white wines are really ready to go at 6 months.

Sounds like TJ's is your friend here.