copper fermentation barrel

robie said:

Sorry guys, we can't discuss *istillation in any form on this forum. It's not us, it's the law-guys.
Even in passing, it is a dirty word and can cause the forum much grieve.

Thanks

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And yet, I can watch 10,000 hours of how to do it -- in detail -- on YouTube produced by USA youtubers.

Think most of us have watched or heard of many YouTube videos that crossed lines, were blatantly demonstrating illegal behavior and more. It's also not unusual to hear that law enforcement used those videos to identify and arrest criminals. This forum's title tells me what we should be discussing. Others who want to pursue other hobbies legal or otherwise certainly are free to do so but I would hate to see this board shut down over a topic that is outside the site's purpose.

AND you can buy the kits to do it on Amazon ... !

I've seen lots of offers on he web for things outside local or federal laws.

All true in terms of the ancient Romans, who lined their copper with lead. (Or used an alloy of copper that included lead...or drank water from lead pipes...)

Thankfully we are all smarter today. Haha. We don't mix lead with our food (at least I don't think anyone does on purpose?).

I personally only use CDA122 or 110 copper (100% pure) and if I'm cooking I use pure tin lining (it usually has a tiny amount of copper to hold it into bar shape when I'm tinning). Not a drop of lead to be found.

This all being said I have had fun reading about copper solubility in low pH per plumbing and other manuals...though obviously there's no tests of copper kettles and wine. Still trying to figure out the numbers.

Suffice to say since people are not up for trying fermentation inside copper, what's with the whole splashing the wine over copper sheet from the hardware store thing? That sounds interesting too.

I feel like I am now needing to learn yet another whole language just to figure out this science. Hahaha.

housecopper said:

..or drank water from lead pipes...)

Thankfully we are all smarter today.

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You've heard of Flint, MI, perhaps? (That situation was brought about due to changing to a water source with lower pH.

Suffice to say since people are not up for trying fermentation inside copper, what's with the whole splashing the wine over copper sheet from the hardware store thing? That sounds interesting too.

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Here's what I do with copper sheet:

I remember going into a High home store (An upper crust version of Home Depoo) They had a hammered copper kitchen sink - OOOOH How stylish. And the practical side of me wanted blurt out - Say what happens if I spill some concentrated Lemon Juice into this sink, or some other highly acidic food. Or Drain Cleaner etc. In other words - boy that's purty but someone else can have that fun. Course they probably have maids too. (Pity poor maid who ruins that sink.)

Anyway - Copper is a beautiful metal with a number uses but somethings just don't pass muster on practical terms. With that I must go check on my must. (Peach Wine started 3 days ago)

Scooter68 said:

I remember going into a High home store (An upper crust version of Home Depoo) They had a hammered copper kitchen sink - OOOOH How stylish. And the practical side of me wanted blurt out - Say what happens if I spill some concentrated Lemon Juice into this sink, or some other highly acidic food. Or Drain Cleaner etc. In other words - boy that's purty but someone else can have that fun. Course they probably have maids too. (Pity poor maid who ruins that sink.)

Anyway - Copper is a beautiful metal with a number uses but somethings just don't pass muster on practical terms. With that I must go check on my must. (Peach Wine started 3 days ago)

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I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.

Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com

Engler said:

Copper compounds are TOXIC . It is one thing to use copper pipes to carry chemically neutral water, and another thing to expose fermenting wine with all complex acids etc etc. to a copper walls of a barrel.

I do not want any copper touching my wine, period.

Beside copper is expensive comparing o other and SAFER alternatives like stainless steel, glass, or wood.

So why bother with copper?

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I don't believe copper is toxic - it's the overexposure of copper that is so...the WHO actually has copper listed as an essential mineral for our survival. Obviously copper mixed with lead...not so much. hee hee... But I agree, having now spent way too much time today than I planned on to read up on copper and low pH and such...that copper is not the right material for fermentation.

Did you know stainless steel holds onto germs for 21 days and copper starts to kill them after 15 minutes? I personally don't like stainless if I can help it...though I can appreciate that it works in terms of winemaking for its nonreactive qualities...

I need to stop typing so much and reading so much...to many random facts. heehee!

sour_grapes said:

I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.

Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com

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You and Scooter are dudes after my heart (am I allowed to say that, being a chick?) - copper sinks are to DIE for, but you need some serious polish to keep it looking amazing after it oxidizes. I personally prefer Eve Stone's stuff for copper ANYthing. Keeps the luster for a ridiculously long time.

As for copper and acidity...think of all those moscow mule mugs and all the limes they are coming into contact with...acidity is not so instant or so dramatic with copper...(or every bar serving moscow mule mugs in copper should be now warned about the copper mixing with the acid of the limes! or...perhaps they are polishing heavily after every use...)

sour_grapes said:

You've heard of Flint, MI, perhaps? (That situation was brought about due to changing to a water source with lower pH.



Here's what I do with copper sheet:

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Oooo - is that roof flashing?? Handmade? What are you using for flux to solder your seams and joints? I've been roving between Johnson's, Astro and Harris myself...

I am a geek. It is official.

Seriously, you guys. I am in maker mode because I just got some new tools and besides the american-style fry pans I'm working on with the fabricators, I want to play with the wine aspect. If there is some copper stick or tool useful in any of the wine creation, tell me! Put in your opinion, because I want to try and make something. Experiment time!!!

sour_grapes said:

I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.

Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com

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As long as buyer recognizes that the apperance is going to change unless the product receive a lot of special care, that's fine. I have my doubts that in 5 years of active use that it will look as nice and shiny as on day one.

That being said in some uses the aged copper takes on beautiful colors such as the green patina on our copper and brass weather vane on the roof.

Tastes vary and results vary but for use as a wine fermentation vessel I see it as way too risky.

sour_grapes said:

Here's what I do with copper sheet:

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When I lived in Switzerland, many houses there had copper trim for window sills, water flashing etc. Some even had full copper roofs. I really liked the look, especially after the copper weathered.

Fast forward years later, moved to Hungary and remodeling our house here. Asked our contractor about copper trim and flashing. He just shook his head and said, "Don't do it. It will just be stolen."

housecopper said:

Oooo - is that roof flashing?? Handmade? What are you using for flux to solder your seams and joints? I've been roving between Johnson's, Astro and Harris myself...

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Yes, that was a j-shaped drainage channel and stepped counterflashing in the top 3 photos. The next two photos show a ventcover for the bathroom fan. This was a one-off project, viz., I put a clay-tile roof on my house a few years ago.

For flux, I just use good ol' Oatey from the hardware store. Hope that wasn't unwise!

balatonwine said:

Asked our contractor about copper trim and flashing. He just shook his head and said, "Don't do it. It will just be stolen."

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I certainly worry about that! I put in copper gutters and downspouts, and those are surely the most tempting targets.

Copper A/C condensing units are being cut off and stolen also.

This post takes some explaining. @housecopper and I exchanged some messages by PM, wherein I told her that I also covered my fridge and DW in copper sheet. She asked me to send those pix to her, but the PM functionality does not allow sending pix by PM as best as I can tell. So I decided to just post them here, in case anyone else is interested, too.

I patinaed the sheets before making the panels. The DW picture was taken just after I completed the panel, so the patina was removed by the flux where I did a lap seam. That quickly re-oxidized and is nearly undetectable now.

stickman said:

Copper A/C condensing units are being cut off and stolen also.

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During the big housing market crash - while copper prices soared, thousands of houses vacant due to foreclosure etc were being torn apart as theives stole any copper, including wiring, that they cold get their hands on There was at least one case of Justice Through Karma (Or stupidity) Two thieves in Fort Smith Arkansas tried to tear out the copper in a vacant factory. While the factory was vacant the power was not off. The Survivor called for an ambulance and the rest of the story became evident pretty quickly.

sour_grapes said:

This post takes some explaining. @housecopper and I exchanged some messages by PM, wherein I told her that I also covered my fridge and DW in copper sheet. She asked me to send those pix to her, but the PM functionality does not allow sending pix by PM as best as I can tell. So I decided to just post them here, in case anyone else is interested, too.

I patinaed the sheets before making the panels. The DW picture was taken just after I completed the panel, so the patina was removed by the flux where I did a lap seam. That quickly re-oxidized and is nearly undetectable now.

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These are gorgeous!! I'm actually very impressed by the tightness of your seams. Did you just use the 10ft rolls of copper you can pick up at Menards? And did you just form the pieces or actually poxy/attach them to the fridge and DW? Thank you for sharing - they are way cooler than I was even picturing!

Scooter68 said:

During the big housing market crash - while copper prices soared, thousands of houses vacant due to foreclosure etc were being torn apart as theives stole any copper, including wiring, that they cold get their hands on There was at least one case of Justice Through Karma (Or stupidity) Two thieves in Fort Smith Arkansas tried to tear out the copper in a vacant factory. While the factory was vacant the power was not off. The Survivor called for an ambulance and the rest of the story became evident pretty quickly.

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That's a good one - and yes, totally true! I would definitely worry about copper on the outside of the house so hopefully @sour_grapes doesn't have any issue with it...!! Put alarms on your copper?! Once it gets that great green verdigris, I think it is somehow less tempting for people as it's not as easy to clean up, of course...

You all know that copper of course was often used for flashing/roofing and the old fashioned tinners and smiths had to climb up on the top of the roofs with portable brazier furnaces (usually made of tin themselves) and then the "coppers" aka old school soldering irons that had big copper tips, were put in and heated - usually you needed 2-3 coppers up there, and while using 1, the other two would get to the right temperature so you could grab it when the first seam went cold...and if you put in too many coppers, the brazier couldn't get them hot enough to work. Hence the adage to of "having too many irons in the fire"